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Inferno
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Apr262009,3:59am

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• Book III, Chapter 10. Summing up. - Annael
  Gandalf invites Aragorn and anyone else who wishes to be present to come witness his attempt to get Saruman to come back to the side of the good guys. They cross the desolation of Isengard and stand at the door of Orthanc, where Gandalf calls to Saruman to come out. Saruman appears on a balcony above them. Ignoring Gandalf at first, he tries to seduce Theoden with words. We suspect his purpose is to turn Theoden against Gandalf once again and ensure his own safety in Rohan. First Gimli and then Eomer try to warn the king, earning a sharp answer from Saruman. Theoden, who seems to be struggling, finally speaks - and makes it clear that he views Saruman as a hated enemy. Saruman loses his temper again and screams at the aged king.

Post of the week: Idril's masterful commentary on "Maiar vs. Maiar." Thanks to everyone who participated this week, it was a great discussion!

• Brava, Annaelina! - Beren11:11
  I finally caught up with all the week's work -- a great job done by one and all, and an especially good job in drawing some good discussion out of an "interim" chapter, i.e. one in which not a lot of "action" takes place, but in which much of import happens none-the-less!

• Grazie lei! - Annael
• Great summing up. Wonderful insight, as always. - Steve D
• Thanks for leading a great discussion again, Annael - Kimi
• Thank you! - Greyhame
  Who is leading the next chapter?
• That information can be found - Annael
  on Gorel's site. Malbeth is up for next week.
• Thanks for leading the discussion! - Idril Celebrindal
• Thanks for leading a great set of discussions! - Nenya
  As always, I've walked away with a great deal more insight than I entered with.
• Book III, Chapter 10. "The Watchwood we will call it." - Annael
  Despite his avowal to watch Saruman for "seven times the years he tormented us," Treebeard doesn't even keep him for seven months. Do you think he keeps his other promise to guard Isengard from intruders? Would the Watchwood be a place two-legged types feel welcome in?
• Gandalf implies it was Saruman's magic tongue that got to Treebeard - Banizar Galpsi
  So I assume that yes otherwise he would have done as he said.
• Hmmm... interesting question. - Hmpf
  I don't think so - except maybe for elves. All the really 'old' woods - and the Watchwood would consist partly of 'old trees' and 'wild trees' as Treebeard says - seem to be not exactly friendly towards two-legged beings... Even Fangorn, a forest that is not dominated by an 'evil' tree like the Old Forest, was not a pleasant place for Merry and Pippin.
• anarcism? - Steve D
  Interesting point, Annael. It seems like Treebeard changed his mind and felt it was right to free Saruman. Maybe this shows that Tolkien feels we should decide for ourselves what is the right thing to do not just follow an authority figure.
• No way Steve! Tolkien was a devout Catholic - dudalb
  and beleived there was definate moral law. The problem with deciding for yourself without any exterior guide...not necessarily a individual figure..is that we end doing what we want to do regardless of the impact on others....Anarchism works only in a college bull session or a internet bulletin board....it would not work in real life...

• Morals and laws - Caleniel
  Tolkien was devout, but I firmly doubt he believed in leaving moral judgement to outside authorities. In my opinion, Tolkien kept emphasizing the importance of free will and individual judgement in telling good and evil apart, and he _did_ say things in his letters about how he disliked nothing more than people trying to "boss it" over others. He did say also that his own personal opinion was more and more inclined towards anarchism, _not_ anarchism in the sense of "bearded men carrying bombs", but in the sense of individul freedom of judgement. I'm reading his letters at the moment, I'd be happy to bring the book and offer some real quotes.

• Isn't there some quote by Tolkien... - Hmpf
  about him leaning towards anarchy? I think someone from the TORN boards is using it as his or her signature...

• That was probably Tolkien expressing his dislike with the current state of politics in Britain...and not to be taken seriously..... - dudalb

• Belated Beren bounds in bearing Black Banner of Anarchy! (rather long quote to follow) - Beren11:11
  Dudalb is correct in that the quote that I use as my signature seems to be tongue-in-cheek, but he goes on in the same letter to talk quite disgustedly about "Government" with a capital "G". And I think that in a way, it may support Steve's and Dudalb's ideas -- that is to say, yes, there is a moral absolute, but no, it does not include lording unearned authority over others. Of course, in the instant case, Treebeard is justly entrusted with keeping Saruman under lock and chain, so maybe after all that, it doesn't quite apply...

Wow -- that was even better this time around!

• Thanks, that was great! - Steve D
  The more I think about it there is a general spirit in LOTR of following individual conscience not authority figures. And when people try to control others, instead of leading by good example, that leads to trouble, for instance Denethor and Saruman.

• not exactly a temporary anger at UK politics;) - Arathorn
  Writing during WW2, he couldn't only blame UK govt, but rather ponder the current fate of mankind at its lowest. When you're in a situation where you can see both totalitarian murderous superpowers, along with decaying corrupted democracies, like him, I think that dudalb would understand Tolkien's position.
  I tend to think it was mainly the "anarchy" word that mislead you, my dear dudalb. So far I seem to notice you rather agree with Tolkien about too-powerful all-encompassing governments.

• I am in favor of limited government... - dudalb
  But some basics like a police force and a court system you have to have ,given what Human Nature is with not much evidence it is going to change for the better any time soon. Anarchy I take as being a complete lack of authority which I just do not think is realistic....
• Hmmm... do you think there are Tolkienist terrorists? ;-) - Hmpf

• *looking shifty-eyed* Um... No -- we don't -- erm... I mean, THEY don't exist! - Beren11:11

• Book III, Chapter 10. "Hoom! A dwarf and an axe-bearer!" - Annael
  Treebeard is won over to Gimli by hearing he only uses his axe on orc-necks. Gimli has so far won the affection of the hobbits, the Elves, and now the Ents. Ain't he just the little good-will ambassador?

• Overcoming old grudges - Idril Celebrindal
  The Dwarves and Ents have a long enmity, ever since the Ents helped Beren defeat the Dwarf army that sacked Menegroth waaaaaaaay back in the First Age. (Treebeard and a couple of the older Ents in Fangorn Forest may even have been there and might therefore remember the battle firsthand.) I suspect that the Dwarves later made some sort of retaliation against the Ents and the two races were at odds ever after. Both races seem to cherish their grudges.

• It was perhaps a bit over-optimistic. - Nenya
  Tolkien was providing an illustration that deeds will overcome prejudices. Prove someone wrong by being something other than what they expect, and they will accept you for who you are.

• Principles - Arveleg
  I think Gimli might have been a symbol of the importance of principles, for example in Lorien when he refused to be the only one blindfolded despite the annoyance of everyone else. I thought it an interesting attempt to stress zero tolerance for judgement on assumptions.
• that you can overcome stereotypes - Aiya
  with work and friendship. And especially by getting to know people, not just assuming you know them because of their race, background, choice of weapon.... The most successful areas of LoTR are the ones where you have many races working together... whether it be elves & men, hobbits & men.. dwarves & anyone..
• Si senhora! - Greyhame
• Gracias senor :) - Aiya
• Book III, Chapter 10. "A heavy shining thing came hurtling down from above." - Annael
  Was Grima aiming at Saruman or Gandalf (or Eomer or Theoden)? Did he know what it was he threw, and what trouble it would cause Saruman if he didn't report in? Would Saruman HAVE reported in to Sauron about what had happened, do you think? If so, how would that have changed events?
• Grima was aiming for Saruman I think - Narya
  But he was dreadfully afraid of the consequences if he missed. So, in case he did, he readied the excuse that he was aiming at Gandalf, and this inner psychological caused his aim to go astray.

• in addition - Annael
  Sauron would not have known that Saruman had captured a hobbit, therefore possibly the Ring. Knowing that and then seeing Aragorn in full regalia in the palantir is what made him strike too soon - he assumed that Aragorn now had the Ring and he wanted to move before Aragorn learned how to use it.
• I'm pretty sure Grima didn't know what it was. - Hmpf
  I'm not sure who he was aiming at, and Tolkien strongly hints that he probably didn't know it himself, since he hated both Gandalf and Saruman...
• BTW anyone note Tuesday night On "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" how much the globe the Buffster found resembles a Palantir.? - dudalb
  As the film draws closer I expect a few Tolkien references in BTVS...
• Grima - the Tolkien character I most love to hate. - Nenya
  Grima was a creature of lusts and frustrations. He would have been hugely annoyed by Gandalf's interference and mastery over Saruman, but he would have been enraged at Saruman, whose failure to defeat Gandalf became Grima's failure to achieve the goals of his own lusts. That Silmaril was mostly aimed at Saruman, with enough of a twitch toward Gandalf that the ball missed both.

• trying to hit his master's counterpart but... - Greyhame
  IMHO Grima didn't have the athleticism to aim anything. I think he was also struggling for sanity at this point and didn't REALLY know what the Palantir was used for. He certainly didn't think of the long-term consequences. I do think that Saruman would have reported in. He would have had to otherwise he'd be in even deeper %@#$. I love Tolkien's sense of irony.
• Book III, Chapter 10. "We shall have peace." - Annael
  Saruman first tries to cajole Theoden - why? What does he want from Theoden?

• He's trying to save his butt. - Glaze
  If you had a troop og angry Rohirrim onder your window, looking like they'd like to take a piece out of you, you would try to convince them that, hey fellas, I'm sorry, how about joining up with me and being on my side for a while?
• Perhaps he's testing his power - Kimi
  over Theoden, to see if he still has an influence over him. He could perhaps inspire Theoden and his warriors to do some immediate damage if he incited them to turn on Gandalf and his companions; or at least he thinks he could. I don't think Saruman is aware of Gandalf's increased power at this point.

• maybe spite plays a part here too: - Hmpf
  He might have tried to make Theoden change sides/stop helping Gandalf just to spite Gandalf, and throw him back in his planning... the things he does in the Shire show that he's definitely not beyond that kind of thing.
• If he had managed to persuade Theoden - Draupne
  not to help Gondor, then he might have believed that Sauron would be pleased with him? Or maybe it was just that he was unwilling to give up, and did it to get more time to think of something clever.

• Good question. - Steve D
  I think he was desperate and was casting about to find any advantage he could. If he could weaken Theoden it might have helped him make a better deal with Gandalf, or something.

• Book III, Chapter 10. Comparing the Maiar. - Annael
  I was going to post this question later but I think it follows on the last question. Gandalf tells Saruman that he is now beyond Saruman's comprehension. Where before Saruman was able to take Gandalf prisoner, Gandalf can now control Saruman with a word. A short time later, Gandalf says that he does not have the power to defeat Orthanc, but he does not know what would happen if Sauron were to come there. Why is it that the three Maiar are not equal in power? Is Gandalf's current power an indication of how much power is inherent to a Maia. Then why is Sauron so much more powerful? The Ring is a focusing device for his power, we know that, but even without it he seems to be more powerful than Gandalf.
• Maia vs Maia ... - Idril Celebrindal
  This is a rather complicated question.

• Don't worry, Idril! Even though that was a masterful exposition... - Patty
  I will resist conferring a B*A*T*E award on you! ( But it was impressive!)
• Re: Blue Wizards - Hmpf
  I've always wondered about them. What exactly *is* their purpose in Middle-earth???

• A quote to illustrate Idril's point about the Maiar. - Malbeth
  From The Silmarillion.
  "And the Valar drew unto themselves many companions, some less, some well nigh as great as themselves..."
  Some of the Maiar are nearly as powerful as a Vala; others aren't. Presumably Sauron was one of the former.
• Impressive Idril indicates and interprets... - Patty
  sorry, wrong board!
  This interpretation sounds very logical to me...maia having different strengh an weakness levels...just as do men, elves, anybody. But would you explain what you mean in the paragraph were you say Sauron allowed most of his power to pass into the One Ring making it unusable to him...I'm not functioning on a level where I get your meaning today...do you mean his power was lessened because it was in the ring, as in he couldn't have his cake (use his power) and eat it too (have it be in the ring?)
• Pleasant Patty politely praises, passes on provoking public impropriety! - Annael
• You've got it ... - Idril Celebrindal
  Sauron allowed his power to pass into the One Ring in order to control all the bearers of the lesser Rings, especially the Three Elven Rings. He also possibly planned to use the Ring as a focus for exerting his power more efficiently. While the Ring was in his posession, this plan worked well. However, putting one's power in an artifact has its drawbacks, the biggest being that there's a chance that said artifact may be taken away from you. This is exactly what happened to Sauron. Much of his power was locked up in the Ring. It still existed, but he couldn't fully access it because he no longer had the Ring in his posession. In fact, an individual of powerful enough will could gain control of the Ring and would be able to use some of Sauron's own power against him. This is why he was so desperate to get the Ring back; it was also the big blind spot in his strategy since he could not conceive that the Ring might be destroyed instead of used.
• Not just the ring - Ron Austin
  Sauron's Constructions like the Barad Dur was made with the ring like Morgoth he deminished himself by putting his essence in the physical the ring was neccessary to allow full access.
• Wow! - Greyhame
  Since I'm relatively new to TORN, I'm amazed by your knowledge of Tolkien's mythology. Do you have some sort of sourcebook for stringing all the mythology from the various sources together, or have you figured it all out through reading Sil, BOLT, etc. Could you tell me if Bombadil was Maiar? ;-)
• Greyhame, if you're interested in Bombadil speculation... - Malbeth
  If you check out the Reading Room archives in Gorel's Lasselanta site, you'll find some great discussion of the nature of Tom and Golberry in the "House of Tom Bombadil" chapter. And I agree, there are some incredibly knowledgable posters on this board, and Idril's one of them.
• After I - Greyhame
  posted that message, I started to check out old discussions through the search engine and came accross a great discussion on "House of Tom Bombadil" with incredible insights from "Blue Wizard". I still think that the chater is extremely important to the overall story, but I think casting the roles would be nearly impossible to do them justice. Though I found the thought of Mick Jagger and Jerry Hall amusing;-) Come derry dol ooh Baby yeah.
• Idril's one of our "scholars." - Annael
  She's impressive, isn't she!
• No sourcebook, just my own interpretation - Idril Celebrindal
  Thanks. I was trying to logically fit together bits of Tolkien's mythology from various sources (including LOTR, the Sil, Morgoth's Ring and Unfinished Tales) that deal with Maiar and the Istari. Mostly it's my own speculation.

• Book III, Chapter 10. "Saruman could look like me in your eyes, if it suited his purpose." - Annael
  Gandalf's main gift is that of inspiration, "kindling men's hearts" to action. What is Saruman's strongest ability?
• It's interesting to think how well those gifts - Kimi
  of inspiration and "persuasion" could work together, if used properly. Saruman's gift could complement Gandalf's, adding logical argument and encouragement to Gandalf's gift of inspiration, if he hadn't chosen to misuse and pervert his gift.
• You've hit on Saruman's tragic side - Idril Celebrindal
  One of the sadder things about this chapter is its depiction of Saruman's fall from grace. He was one of the highest, noblest, and most learned figures in Middle-earth ... and was corrupted by greed and lust for power. Here we see him on the way down, but we don't get the full impact of his fall until the Scouring of the Shire.
• Gandalf goes for the heart; Saruman goes for the mind - Aelric
  Galdalf stirs peoples' hearts; Saruman twists peoples' minds. The most cunning of all Maiar is he and he uses that very well.
• I like that.. - Aiya
  I also like the fact that Gandalf turned out to be more powerful (albeit with help from the Valar) That sounds like the heart winning out over the mind.. something that seems to be a theme for Tolkien & a notion that has a special place in *my* heart
• manipulation - Aiya
  He can get men to do whatever he wants~ in the beginning he used this for good.. but that is an easily corruptible power.
• I agree - Greyhame
  Persuasion is turned to Manipulation when he dominates other minds. Persuading someone alludes to changing someone's mind who has a free will.
• well put - Aiya
  I think, especially towards the end of the 3rd age, Saruman got impatient with persuasion & found manipulation much faster and easier for what he wanted
• I'd have to say persuasion. - Malbeth
  Saruman can dominate weaker minds, and often persuade even the Wise.
• I agree, Malbeth. Persuasion with that.. - Patty
  voice.
• I have to disagree about heart versus MInd... - dudalb
  I think Gandalf represents a balance...the Heart versus mind controversy is a false one IMHO...by people who want an automatic answer "from the heart" and want to avoid the hard work of thinking...
• Book III, Chapter 10, The Voice of Saruman. "Dangerous, and probably useless," - Annael
  says Gandalf about going to talk to Saruman. What do you think his motives were for going anyway?
• Repentance and need. - Glaze
  Gandalf needed to give Saruman the chance to repent. He was a Maiar after all, and had done good deeds for far longer than he had done Evil.

• The "probably useless" remark relates, I think, - Kimi
  to Gandalf's desire to offer Saruman the chance of repentance. As you say, Annael, Gandalf also has the motivation of removing Saruman as a threat at this point; but the offering of an opportunity to repent, even though Gandalf acknowledges that it's probably useless, seems to be vital.

• I think that his purposes were twofold - Ron Austin
  one , he gives Saruman a last chance to rejoin the cause that the Valar sent him to Middle-Earth to do.
  Two, the public demonstration of breaking Saruman's staff shows everyone that Saruman is not a figure to lead armies against the allies and thus removes any future support for Saruman's cause.
• I agree with the posts so far, but I also think . . . - Annael
  that Gandalf went prepared to do exactly what happened. Gandalf had no choice but to reduce the threat offered by an unrepentant Saruman, both by breaking Saruman's staff and by demonstrating his own power to Saruman.
• To give Saruman one last chance to repent - Idril Celebrindal
  ... and redeem himself from error. Most of Tolkien's fallen characters get an opportunity to redeem themselves at some point or another. We see it with Smeagol, for instance. Usually something happens that prevents them from repenting their crimes, however, and they continue down the dark path that they have chosen for themselves.

• Yes, redemption....but not because he had been - Patty
  "great" once, but because he had once been "good" (I assume this to be the case because he is a maia). Otherwise, we have to get into that whole thing again about why the orcs weren't given second chances, but slain whenever they could be slain.
• redemption? - Arathorn
  Assuming Gnadalf feled some good could be left in Smeagol, I'd think he wanted to see if he could redeem Saruman, bring him back to the Light side of the Force;)

• probably - Aiya
  Saruman was great once~ and essentially Gandalf's leader~ I'm sure he wanted to have one last try to turn Saruman to the good side. And if he could of~ Saruman would have been a very powerful ally~ powerful enough to warrant a second chance.
• hypothetical... - Greyhame
  If Gandalf had succeeded in turning Saruman around, what would he(Saruman) have done with the Orc army?
• argh~ too much thinking too early.. - Aiya
  Wasn't the army already destroyed at that point? (by the rohirrim)
• Um... Ahem...

Inferno
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Apr262009,4:00am

Post #27 of 65(29647 views)
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• Book III, Chapter 11: Summing Up - Malbeth
  Three books down, and three to go – we’re half-way home! In some ways, this chapter is more like the first chapter of Book V, rather than the last chapter of Book III. The first part of Book V is now set, with Gandalf on his way to Minas Tirith, and Aragorn in possession of the palantír, ready for the vital show-down with Sauron, which will set up the West's final strategy against the Dark Lord.

• Wonderful discussion this week, thanks Malbeth! - Annael
• You came up with some very thoughtful questions! Thanks! - Idril Celebrindal
• Thanks for leading an excellent discussion, Malbeth - Kimi
• Book III, Chapter 11: Glimpses of the Past - Malbeth
  When Gandalf tells Pippin what he would like to see using the palantír, we get another small glimpse of the epic mythology that would become The Silmarillion, as Gandalf talks about how he would use the stone:

• Elrond's reminiscing about the first & second ages at the council - Aiya
  and Gimli's song about Durin in Moria
• Choosing two out of many: - Kimi
  1. "Earendil was a mariner". I can with a little self-indulgence almost remember what it was like reading this section for the first time. This was obviously a semi-mythical event; and yet soon afterwards (in pages) Elrond mentions that Earendil was his father. That sent a shiver down my spine.

• The host of Valinor assailing Morgoth's stronghold - Narya
  That's what I call spectacular television!
• The poem about Eorl the Young - Idril Celebrindal
  Aragorn recites it to Legolas, Gandalf, and Gimli while they are on their way to Edoras:

• Faramir's mention of the fall of Numenor - Adaneth

• One of my favorites too - Aiya
  it gives me chills when he talks about darkness unescapable..

• me too! - Annael
• The early history of the hobbits, Bullroarer Took.:) - Steve D
• Golf? - Skywalker
  Wasn't he responsible for inventing the game of golf?
• Yes! - Steve D
  He knocked off the Orc-chief Golfimbul's head with a club and it landed in a rabbit hole, winning the battle and inventing the game of golf at the same time.

• You're not fooling anyone, Steve - Draupne
  You're only saying that you want to hear more about Bullroarer to impress the EO ;-)
• I love it when Legolas sings of Nimrodel - Annael
  Such a lovely, tragic story, and the idea that her voice is still in the stream, endlessly singing.
• Sam at Cirith Ungol - Skywalker
  Far and away the discussion that Sam has with Frodo at Cirith Ungol, just before they enter the cave and Shelob's lair. Sam, pondering the Vial of Galadrial and it's mythical light, speaks of the conflicts that began so long before and the Trees of Valar and theft of the Simarils and then, in a statement I wish I could remember word for word, says that, in a way, he and Frodo are a part of that on-going conflict and perhaps its resolution and might even one day be remembered in the songs as having a part in the grand scheme of things. Leave it to Sam to take ten thousand years of history and put it into excellent perspective.
• Yes, I love that one too! - Malbeth
  "Why, to think of it, we're in the same tale still! It's going on. Don't the great tales never end?"
• The cats of Queen Beruthiel ;-) - Draupne
• Without a doubt. - Greyhame
  Beren and Luthien. Hopefully with the added action of Arwen, it will make the parallel even stronger.
• Book III, Chapter 11: Temptation - Malbeth
  Toward the end of the chapter, there's a paragraph in which Gandalf tells Pippin that even now he's tempted to use the palantír himself, to test his will against Sauron's and gain control of the stone. Do you suppose one reason Gandalf wanted Aragorn to take the stone was to take away the temptation to use it? Just as with the Ring, Gandalf had great need for the power it could give him.
• Actually I don't think so - Narya
  Once Gandalf knew the danger of using the palantir, I don't think that he was at risk. The lure of the palantir was nothing compared to the lure of the One ring. The main danger that Gandalf would be tempted to use it was before Pippin's little episode, when Gandalf was unaware of the danger.

• probably - Greyhame
  It's not clear to me just how much power this new Gandalf the White had. He himself was probably itching to test it out a bit. But I'm very glad that Tolkien put this vulnerability into the wise character of Gandalf. It brings him closer to the hearts of the readers.
  But aside from all that, I think that Gandalf had every intention to restore the stone to its rightful heir as soon as he could be certain what it was.
  I still have the question I posted yesterday though... In the rightful hands, would the palantir aid its user? Did it have an ego of its own?
• I think the palantír itself is neutral, - Hmpf
  however, Sauron is very strong and can force whoever uses it (except for someone with a very strong will) to see only what he allows. (And he seems to be able to mess with peoples' minds via the palantír, too.) I think that in the past, when Sauron didn't have power over one of the palantírs, you could use them without danger. I could imagine that what they would show the untrained user would be random images, and that it would take some practice to see what you want to see, though.
• Book III, Chapter 11: "Now my hour draws near" - Malbeth
  Not really a question, but an observation. I think this chapter contains another milestone in Aragorn's journey from Ranger to King. After staying quietly in the background at Orthanc, Aragorn boldly claims the palantír when Gandalf asks if he will take it.

• I agree, Malbeth. Emblems and artifacts - Kimi
  are very important in LOTR. The palantiri are among the great heirlooms of the Kings, and Aragorn is claiming his own.

• Wow, never thought of that! - Annael
  Once again, my thinking is expanded! I LOVE THIS BOARD!
• Yes - Adaneth
  I love this part. Aragorn grows more and more sure of himself and takes steps he never would have dreamed of taking earlier (say right after Gandalf's death). When he actually uses the palantir and so averts disaster it is a great mark of his maturing confidence.
• Ever since he stepped into Rohan - Annael
  Aragorn has seemed to come into a fuller sense of himself. The closer he gets to Gondor, the more he starts acting like the King. His declaration to Eomer on the plains, where he claims all his names & titles and Eomer's fealty, is astounding to me every time I read it.

• Another thought. - Annael
  Gandalf specifically invites Aragorn to come to the meeting with Saruman. Yet Saruman never speaks to Aragorn. Surely as a member of the White Council, he would know who the heir of the Dunedain was? I'm curious about Gandalf's motives for having Aragorn there, and what Saruman thought.

• Aragorn and Saruman - Adaneth
  I don't think that Saruman knew who Aragorn was. If I remeber aright, they were all dressed as warriors of Rohan. I don't know if the idea of there being an heir of Isildur still living had ever occured to Saruman. even souron in all his knowledge did not know of Aragorn until Aragorn reveraled himself in the palantir.
  Adaneth
• Exactly! - Idril Celebrindal
  I also get the feeling that Saruman had discounted the heirs of Isildur because they had been relatively powerless ever since the last of the northern kingdoms dissolved. Aragorn's low profile causes Saruman to overlook his potential influence.
• Gandalf Too - Skywalker
  Also interesting the manner in which Gandalf hands the stone over to Aragorn. Has Gandalf ever kneeled before anyone before? He certainly did not kneel before Theoden or Denethor. Considering his place as a Maia (did I spell that right?) spirit, second only to the Valar, I think it harkens of the original description of man in the Quenta Simalliron and how, in their mortality (and unlike the elves), they would hold dominion over Arda beyond even the Valar.
• excellent observation - Steve D
• Book III, Chapter 11: Just Curious? - Malbeth
  Do you think Pippin was just being his usual curious self when he took the palantír, or was there something more? Was he drawn to, or tempted by, the power of this thing, like people were drawn by the ring? Any opinions?
• He does seem unnaturally drawn - Kimi
  to the palantir, beyond his normal curiosity, and to me it's implied that he's drawn to it because of having briefly handled to it.

• A combination of - Aiya
  Pippin's natural curiousity (which on this one I can't fault him~ my curiousity would have been eating me alive as well) and Sauron's willpower. Sauron wants Saruman to report and is concentrating his formidable will to that effort. He wants someone to report to the Palantir to tell him what in the world is going on~ and I've always thought that some of that comes through the Palantir. I definitely don't think Pippin is working completely on his own here~ Pippin could be foolish but not suicidal~ and stealing things from sleeping wizards seems a quick way to get yourself blown through a wall.
• It seems clear - Greyhame
  that there was some malevolent force at work with regards to Pippin and the Palantir. I was surprised that no one commented on its will bending properties in the compare and contrast with the one ring section. I guess the palantir has a protective mechanism to keep away those for whom it is not meant. I would think that the stone has an ego of its own and is inherently a tricky object. Perhaps when it is in the heir of Elendil's hand it would behave itself. That's why Aragorn has no problem stepping in and being it's custodian. But I'm curious 1) If Sauron tainted the stone in some way. and 2) If the stone would help its rightful owner when gazing into it?(and Aragorn would be in less danger or an advantage in a direct confrontation with Sauron via the palantir)
• Just Like Gollum! - Skywalker
  Obviously Pippin had an insatiable curiosity that often got the better of him. This, coupled with The Dark Lord's ability to make one's fear and weakness work against them, as he did Denethor, led Pippin to steal the stone. But, isn't it interesting to notice the two sides of Pippin emerging as he argued with himself over stealing or not stealing the stone? Very similar to the conversations Bilbo, Frodo, and Gollum had with themselves concerning the ring.
• But then Pippin has shown recklessness bordering on stupidity in Moria ....... - dudalb
  It is not until after his encounter with Sauron that Pippin finally wises up. Pippin is the LOTR charecter most likely to be a contestent for the Darwin Awards.........See Aelric's post on the main for this year's Darwin Awards for extreme stupidity....
• Book III, Chapter 11: Compare and Contrast - Malbeth
  Discuss the similarities and differences between the palantír and another unique, 'magical' object, the One Ring.
• Ring vs. Palantir - Skywalker
  I don’t think the palatir has any kind of life or mind of it’s own. Like the Ring it is a tool, but unlike the ring, it can be used for good or for evil. In the end, the Ring of Power can only be made to serve evil purposes. There’s no doubt that, in the physical presence of Sauron, wills would crumble, hearts would fail, and all but a few of the very powerful would ultimately become his agents of evil. The palantir allowed him to extend his physical presence to those who beheld it as Saruman and Denethor did and both were ultimately corrupted and were made to serve Sauron. The Ring of Power, on the other hand, would allow him to reach out and ensare all beings from his tower in Mordor and enslave all of middle earth.
• Why was - Greyhame
  Pippin so drawn to it after only having held it? Had Sauron/Saruman somehow tainted it?
• maybe not tainted, but he surely was able to... - Hmpf
  extend his influence through it, and that is what compelled Pippin to look into it, I think.
• I'll give it a shot ... - Idril Celebrindal
  The palantiri and the One Ring have some overlap in function but were created for entirely different purposes. The One Ring was created as a device for controlling the wearers of the other elven rings and as a tool for concentrating and focusing Sauron's power. It can also act as an aid to insight and vision, bringing knowledge of things far away to its wearer.

• What she said, plus... - Beren11:11
  In talking about how both devices control, there is a further distinction, or maybe just clarification -- the power of the Ring is affective, whereas the power of the Palantiri is effective. That is, The Ring "enforces" Sauron's will but the Palantir simply "enables" it. The Ring is bound up entirely with Sauron's power, but the Palantir simply allows him a means of exercising a certain aspect of it.
• Book III, Chapter 11: "I did not at once guess the nature of the Stone" - Malbeth
  Gandalf (Olórin) was a Maia in Valinor when Fëanor created the palantíri. He could have been familiar with their appearance from that time. Also, he was in Middle-earth for hundreds of years before the loss of Osgiliath and its stone, and even longer before the stones in the north were lost. It seems reasonable that Gandalf might have seen or even used one of these stones. Yet he didn't immediately know what the Orthanc stone was. Any ideas why?
• When Gandalf returned as Gandalf the White he said - Kimi
  (from memory; please excuse inaccuracies) "I have forgotten much that I once knew, and remembered much that I thought I had forgotten."

• About forgetting... - Malbeth
  In the chapter on the Istari in Unfinished Tales, it says that when the Istari were incarnated into their bodies to be sent to Middle-earth, they only retained vague memories of their lives as Maiar. Perhaps his memory was similarly affected when he was re-incarnated.
• I agree, and we should also remember - Hmpf
  that Saruman was probably able to *make* strange things. Something that looks like a palantír does not necessarily have to *be* a palantír, I guess - Saruman could have attempted to recreate one, or it might have been something else entirely - after all, who knows what wizards have lying around at home! ;-)
• I think he was pretty sure about what it was. - Annael
  But he was tired. Calling Saruman back and breaking his staff probably took a lot out of him, and who knows when he's last slept anyway. I think he had a pretty good idea what it was and suspected that Saruman and Sauron communicated through it. Buthe knew the only way to be sure was to look in it, and he wasn't quite ready to encounter Sauron. So he put it off, Wisely (ar-ar, Tolkien pun).
• Agree ... - Idril Celebrindal
  Also, Gandalf was distracted by his confrontation with Saruman and did not immediately realize what Grima had thrown at him. (Who'd have thought that Grima would have tossed Saruman's most prized artifact out the window?) He catches himself almost immediately -- the fact that the thrown object damages the supposedly impervious rock of Orthanc probably is what tips him off that it is no ordinary stone -- but not before Pippin has a chance to handle it.

• Gandalf Used Pippin - Skywalker
  Fact is, Gandalf knew what the stone was when Grima threw it from Orthanc and, more importantly he knew that Pippin would be unable to resist a look into it. Is it reasonable to believe that anyone could sneak up on a sleeping wizard and take anything from him, much less something he guarded? Gandalf wanted Pippin to gaze into the stone to confuse and confound Sauron and buy more time, and, after Pippin’s curiosity getting the best of him in Moria, Gandalf quickly realized he could use Pippin for this purpose. He knew he could not look into it and assumed that Aragorn would be unable to handle looking into the stone, but he never underestimates the strength and will of the halflings, often, putting great responsibilities on their small shoulders. Notice how easily he gave it up to Aragorn after Pippin had looked into it? His use for it was done. Seems like a reasonable idea anyway, at least when I thought of it a few minutes ago.
• I think Gandalf intended Pippin to look into it.. - Amarth
  Gandalf clearly wanted to divert attention from Frodo and Sam...and how better to do this than hang bait before the evil eye? Sauron was looking for and also fearing the halfling, but if Gandalf would have made/had Pippen look into the Palantir, the Sauron would have read him like a book. What I don't think is that Gandalf was ready for Aragorn to stand up and claim his advisarial role to The Evil one yet! But of course to Sauron this all made sense, the Son of Arathorn and Isildur's bane coming to Gondor to do battle. (sucker :-) )
• No way Jose - Greyhame
  Such a risky plan could have blown up in Gandalf's face. He would have never knowingly taken the risk to let Pippin's mind be searched by Sauron. Pippin knew too much which depended on secrecy to succeed. Besides, I never saw Gandalf as the type who manipulated anyone. He was a character of great integrity and a short temper.
• Not the Gandalf I know - Gorel
  I can't agree with you at all, and not on strategic grounds (although I also disagree for that reason). I just can't believe Gandalf, who shows such an affection for hobbits, and lectures Frodo on mercy for Gollum, would coldly sacrifice his young charge to the torture of Sauron's interrogation for a dubious strategic advantage. Especially since that would mean that he was also being deviously deceitful when he cries "The devilry! What mischief has he done - to himself, and to all of us?", and afterwards when he talks to Aragorn.

• I agree, Gorel. Gandalf would not - Kimi
  risk sacrificing an unwitting individual "for the greater good". It would be against his morals as well as his feelings, IMHO.

• I agree with Gorel - Narya
  Whether or not Gandalf had ever seen a Palantir is speculation. Whether or not he knew that a Palantir was in Orthanc is unknown.

I think it's fair to say that Gandalf suspected what it was once it had been thrown out of the window, but it wouldn't be fair to say he knew for certain. With his usual caution, he kept hold of the object for later examination and inspection.
It is most certainly unfair to criticise Gandalf for Pippin's actions. Gandalf was wise, yes, but he couldn't possibly foresee every eventuality.

• Not to mention that Gandalf was aware of Pippin;s recklessness and at times tendacy to foolishness and would not have.... - dudalb
  trusted something this important to someone as reckless as Pippin is, although he seems to wise up after.....

• And it's the start of Pippin's big change - Idril Celebrindal
  The incident with the palantir scares some sense into him, and he begins to finally grow up.
• No way! - Nenya
  Pippin, the "Fool of a Took"? Pippin was, to be kind, weak-minded when compared to Sauron, and knew far too much about the Company's doings. Had Sauron been more alert, he could have stripped far more knowledge out of Pippin's mind that Gandalf would have ever wanted shared with Sauron. Sauron would have learned of Gandalf's rise to the White, he would have learned that the Company's intent was to destroy the One Ring rather than wield it in battle, he would have learned that the Ring was off wandering towards the Crack of Doom being carried by two hobbits alone with no army backing them up. I can't believe there is any way Gandalf would have chanced any of that knowledge falling into Sauron's hands, and am surprised he didn't take greater precautions with what he must have at least suspected was a Palantir.
• Maybe, Maybe Not... - Skywalker
  Excellent point. Not disagreeing with you, certainly Sauron could have decimated Pippin and the quest of the Ring, but he did not. Why? Because he was expecting to either see Saruman, or someone he thought wielded the power to put down Saruman, namely Gandalf or Aragorn (maybe) and not a weak-minded fool of a hobbit. Pippin’s glance into the Orthanc Stone led to Sauron’s first being aware that his plans were not flawless and first pulled his eye away from it’s search for The Ring. Gandalf knew the real quest was with Frodo and that the war in the West would have to be nothing more than a diversion, a way to draw Sauron’s eye away from his own land. Pippin was the perfect being to look into the stone because he was a fool, but yet he had the heart and courage to not betray his friends. Gandalf talks, in The Hobbit, of his long friendship with The Old Took and perhaps knew of this courage that Pippin held inside. In my mind, secretly allowing Pippin to look into the stone was no greater a risk than sending the Ring to Mordor in the hands of Frodo and Sam.
• Don't think he used Pippin - Justafan

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• Book IV, Chapter 1, "The Taming of Smeagol": summary - Kyriel
  First, thanks to all who participated in the discussion of the chapter. We had some really excellent commentary this week, didn't we? :-) A summary of topics discussions and opinions given:

• Very nice and thourough summary! - Hmpf

• Or would that be 'thorough?' I think so... - Hmpf
• Great Kyriel, wonderful points. - Steve D
• Great job this week, Kyriel! - Gorel
• Great discussions; great summary. Thanks, Kyriel! - Kimi
• Book IV, Chapter 1, "The Taming of Smeagol": THE best quote of the chapter - Kyriel
  This will be my last question for the week, but it's such a juicy one that I wanted to post it early so everyone could have a crack at it, work surfers and weekend surfers alike. Here's the quote:

"...Not on it. Swear by it, if you will. For you know where it is. Yes, you know, Smeagol. It is before you."
For a moment it appeared to Sam that his master had grown and Gollum had shrunk: a tall stern shadow, a mighty lord who hid his brightness in grey cloud, and at his feet a little whining dog. Yet the two were in some way akin and not alien: they could reach one another's minds.
"Down! down!" said Frodo. "Now speak your promise!"
Aaaaaah, what a great little passage! I could probably pull fifteen different questions out of it if I tried, but why don't I just choose a handful and let you answer those or create your own?
1) What significance do you attach to the fact that Frodo says "It is before you," rather than "It is very near you," or "It is with me," or something similar? After all, what is technically "before" Gollum is Frodo!
2) Is this new "mighty lord" quality of Frodo's a good or a bad thing? After all, it seems to have to something to do with the Ring, but "hiding his brightness in grey cloud" reminds me of Gandalf.
3) In what ways are Frodo and Gollum "akin and not alien"?
4) In what way can Frodo and Gollum "reach one another's minds"? Is it telepathy or empathy or something else?
That's all for the moment. I'm sure other people will have more comments and questions.
--Kyriel

• I agree with both Idril and Greyhame - - Hmpf
  very good replies, both. I'm in a hurry, so I can't reply to all the questions now, so I'll just comment on question number two:

• Great observation! - Steve D
• Is this the beginning of the Ring's corruption of Frodo? - Idril Celebrindal
  I view this scene as a fall from grace for Frodo. Until now, he's never used the Ring to influence others. Yet in this chapter, out of necessity, he threatens Gollum with it and uses its lure to compel Gollum to assist him. I think this marks the point when the Ring really sets to work on Frodo. Invoking the Ring to dominate another creates a crack in Frodo's determination not to be influenced by it, one which the Ring will exploit in the future.

• Not the beginning - Temujin
  I think that any time a person willing uses the ring, as Frodo does here in a round about way, that it further corrupts the weilder. Frodo had used the ring before and it ate at him. It's use even ate at Bilbo who had been away from it for year. The worse corruption (and possibly most absolute) is when good intentions are used for evil. So insidious in the ring that it does this best, imho.
• Juicy *drip drip* - Greyhame
  1.By stating that "it is before you", Frodo acknowledges that the ring is more than an object, it is in itself an entity (or a presence) which is not a mere token of power.
  2. While Frodo's lord-like demeanor makes one wonder how much influence the ring is exerting on him, it is Frodo's commanding and fearful tone which binds Smeagol to do his bidding for such a long time. Smeagol also seems to enjoy being dominated by this new Lord of the Ring in the same way an abuse victim goes back to hiss/her abuser.
  3. Akin as halfling bearers of the ring and "not alien" in the torment that the ring brings(though poor smeagol is almost totally corrupted)
  4.I would imagine it is total empathy that allows them to reach each other's minds. Though I wouldn't be surprised if the ring facilitates some sort of telepathic understanding between two ring bearers. eg. Bilbo's "I understand now" in the house of Elrond. I see that episode as a foreshadowing of the taming of Smeagol.

• Book IV, Chapter 1: "The Taming of Smeagol": Swearing on the Precious - Kyriel
  Gollum offers to "swear on the Precious" when Frodo and Sam are looking for some oath he can be trusted to keep. Realizing that Gollum really just wants to get his hands on the thing again, Frodo instead forces him to swear BY the Precious. Now, note Gollum's words: "We promises, yes, I promise! I will serve the master of the Precious."

• Is it Smeagol or Gollum who is swearing? - Idril Celebrindal
  I think Gollum's split personality causes yet another twist to this. Smeagol is the last remnants of Gollum's good side, and would probably keep his word to Frodo. Gollum is the dominant personality; corrupted by the Ring, he'd look for any way to weasel out of his promise.

• Keeping Promises - Skywalker
  Intersting. The sincerity I think was genuine. Smeagol had several opportunites to kill both hobbits himself despite Sam's efforts to have one of them awake at all times, but did not. However, through Shelob's lair was indeed the only way that Frodo could have gotten into Mordor, so technically, Gollum kept his promise to show them a way into Mordor but also served The Ring (or so he thought) and his desire for it by leading them into a trap.
• Does Gollum himself know what he intends? - Kimi
  Gollum is twisted and treacherous; all he wants is to be reunited with his Precious. He'll promise anything so long as it gives him the opportunity to stay close to the Ring with a view to getting his hands on it.

• I think we can consider Gollum as - more or less - schizophrenic, so - Hmpf
  I'd say that Smeagol's promise is sincere, while Gollum of course intends to regain the ring in some way. Both motivations are valid for a while, until Gollum proves stronger than Smeagol...

• Not schizophrenic, exactly. - Nenya
  But Gollum/Smeagol really seems like a multiple personality disorder. And would such a thing really be surprising? After all, all those years underground, uneasily coexisting with orcs and living exclusively on raw fish would have taken its toll on any creature originally born to sunshine and open spaces.

• It may sound a bit far-fetched, but... - Tintalle
  ...just a thought: Gollum says "I will serve the MASTER of the Precious", never really naming the master. Is there ambiguity, and if so, could it be intentional? Sort of like crossing your fingers behind your back?
• Book IV, Chapter 1: "The Taming of Smeagol": "It bites" - Kyriel
  I'm afraid Gorel's already taken a crack at this one with his answer to "A Gollum in Full." But now you all get a shot at it:

• I mused over the question of whether - Kimi
  the rope would leave an actual mark for some time. I'm not sure, but I think it might well do. It certainly hurt him physically.

• Light vs. Darkness - Skywalker
  The lembas and the elven rope, like all things elven, possess some kind of magical and/or supernatural properties. As Frodo and Sam are trudging through the heart of Mordor, without water, without food, and without hope, it is said that it is indeed the lembas that is allowing them to go on. I don’t think the lembas itself issued fourth, upon consumption, any kind of will or power of its own, but I do think it pulled together and concentrated the energy and hope that the hobbits had left within them even when it appeared they had nothing left. Therefore, it would seem that both elven gifts (along with Galadriel’s vial, sting, and their elven cloaks) were given, either by purpose or simply because they were elven and all things elven are innately good and just, magical properties that propelled and focused the will of the Ringbearer and his quest to destroy the Ring of Power, which, on a grander scale is the ultimate quest of good vs. evil, light vs. darkness. Clearly this purpose was a physical threat to Smeagol and not only his own desire to recapture the ring but his entire existence. It’s also interesting to note that his reaction to the elven rope is similar to his reaction to sunlight. Just about everything of the elves is described in terms of light or anti-darkness and as evil approaches, that light grows stronger and more evident. Gollum is a creature of darkness who may not be entirely evil but is possessed and driven by the darkness which had both consumed and preserved him but will, in the end, destroy him and yet, at the same time save and restore him.
• hmmm - Jester113
  wow, I agree that Gorel had a really powerful lil statement there, which really made me look at Gollum in a new light, as I, too, never hated him, but never really sympathized with him either.
  As for me, if I were to do it, I would have so that you see only bits and pieces of him at a time, and for the bit with Bilbo and the riddles, have him just out if sight calling to Bilbo. Maybe just a shadow here and there. And when we finally see him, have him with pale mottled skin, but no hair at all. Nothing at all that would make him seem to be once a hobbit. This makes the final revelation of this knowledge so much more potent, as the audience gets used to seeing the retched thing and somewhat hating its repulsiveness, and then to suddenly find out that it used to be something much more noble than a creature to be shunned and kicked! Audience would eat it up! The one thing which I might do to possibly leave an avenue open for the audience to accept him as "not such a bad guy", would be to give him a sweet voice. Not racous and rasping, as earlier depicted, but sweet and nice sounding. Possibly even to the point that when Bilbo first hears it, he feels comforted and calls back to it or something, because he thinks he has found someone else in the reeking stenchpit he's found himself in. Then he get's a glimpse of it, hears it's gasping breath, and suddenlt realizes that, WHAMO!!!, it's not what he thought it was!!!! just a though :)
• Book IV, Chapter 1: "The Taming of Smeagol": How much does Gollum know? - Kyriel
  When Gollum asks Frodo where he and Sam are going, Frodo says, "You know that, or you guess well enough, Smeagol....We are going to Mordor, of course." Gollum then admits that he'd guessed as much - but he never asks WHY they're going there, and of course Frodo never tells him.

• I think that Gollum has indeed guessed - Kimi
  they are going to Mordor. In part because that's where they're heading; they wouldn't be crossing the Emyn Muil otherwise.

• Ah, FINALLY... - Tintalle
  ...the question that has been bothering me in the past few weeks (that is, in those rare moments not devoured by insane workload...), has been raised in precisely the same way I've been meaning to ask it! Thanks Kyriel! I was only waiting for this chapter's discussion, where the question belongs, to get started... kinda missed the start. :-)

• I don't think he knows or even guesses. - Annael
  Frodo is going, Frodo has the Ring, if Gollum follows him, maybe something will happen so that Gollum can get the Ring again . . . I think that's about as far as his mind can stretch.
• Another Question??? - Skywalker
  And at what point did Gollum conceive of his plan to lead them into Shelob’s lair to be destroyed so he could recapture the ring? Later in the book, a fairly strong case can be made for the fact that Gollum conceived of this plan when he was at Ciroth Ungol in his escape from Mordor, which would have been well before the beginning of The Fellowship. Did Gollum know even then of the plans that Elrond and the council would make concerning The Ring? Surely he would have had to have understood that the Ringbearer (who he should have thought was Bilbo at this point) would have to want to get into Mordor to even imagine him going willingly to Minas Morgul and up to Ciroth Ungol.

• Gollum, Shelob and the Ring - D'Artagnan
  I think Gollum promised to guide Frodo at first because he was compelled by the Ring to obey him. Gollum also wants to keep the Ring out of Saurons hands as long as possible and himself as close as possible to it. Then he hatched a plan to get the Ring without technically violating his promise by leading Frodo to Shelob so he had to continue pretending to be a loyal native guide to convince Frodo and Sam to follow him into Shelob's nest. I do not think he consciously realized that Frodo planned to destroy the Ring.

• Agree mostly. - Annael
  I think Gollum got the idea to lead Frodo to Shelob when they had reached the Black Gate and it was obvious they couldn't get in that way. Remember the debate between Stinker & Slinker as Frodo lay sleeping in the pit by the Black Gate? That's when Gollum remembered Shelob and got the idea. I doubt very much he was capable of plotting much more deeply or further ahead than the very immediate future.
• I think he knows, but... - Hmpf
  ...is trying to ignore what he knows/understands because it would mean his 'precious' would be destroyed. Gollum is a mirror image of Frodo, and Frodo can (partly) read Gollum's mind- I think Gollum can do the same, though maybe on a more intuitive level, with less 'real' understanding. Sauron, on the other hand, has been parted from the ring for a long time. And anyway, I think Ringbearers (actual and former) need to be geographically near to each other to be able to understand so much of their counterpart's motivations and thoughts. And Sauron is power-hungry, this shapes his thoughts and clouds his judgement in this matter. He isn't *able* to imagine someone might want to destroy the Ring.
  As for why Gollum agrees to be Frodo's and Sam's guide if he guesses what they are about to do: Well, firstly, he may guess, but he doesn't admit it to himself - he's in denial, I think; and secondly, he's unable to openly resist the power of the Ring; as long as Frodo has the Ring, he has power over Gollum.
• Book IV, Chapter 1, "The Taming of Smeagol": A Gollum in Full - Kyriel
  The first time LotR readers "see" Gollum in full is in this chapter, as he's climbing down the rock face toward Frodo and Sam. Tolkien describes him as spider-like, a "black crawling shape" with "soft clinging hands and toes" and eyes like "two small pale gleaming lights." And that's just about all the physical description we EVER get for Gollum, except for his few sharp teeth and heavy eyelids.

• A horribly ruined hobbit - Kimi
  Not obviously a hobbit, but recognisable as having once been one. Frightening but pitiable.

• In the BBC production... - Trufflehunter
  ...(the tapes of the radio show) Gollum is depicted right at the very beginning during his captivity and torture in the Dark Tower. It's a brilliant scene, btw, imho, etc, for those who haven't heard it.

• No CGI - Temujin
  The Jar Jar effect needs to be minimized for the character to be believable. When I look at CGI I see CGI, not a living moving thing. Jar Jar and the SW:EP1 robots didn't look real at all to me. Spielburg's TRex did. That is because the movie switched from CGI to model to mock up. It confused the mind enough to accept the CGI as more real.

• a thought about Gollum - Steve D
  We don't see Sauron. (And I hope we don't in the movies.) But by seeing Gollum we see the person who is perhaps most like him.
• Gollum and movie. - septembrist
  I would have Gollum with pale, pasty skin. He would have no hair or maybe a few hairs still surviving on his scalp. He would not be clothed.

• I would not show Gollum until Two Towers, - dudalb
  but do what Tolkien does....have him just offstage. The Fellowship could hear Gollum but not actually get a clear glimps of him..besides I think PJ wants to keep exactly what Gollum will look like as a surprise until "Two Towers"..Good for the Box office....
• What about flashbacks re tale of the Ring? - septembrist
  Do you show Gollum during Bilbo's encounter or when Gollum first gets the Ring? If so, then we might as well get a glimpse of him in FOTR.
  Although introducing a new and unusual character in TTT would make a nice draw as you suggest.
• as for the movie . . . - Annael
  I think we'll have hints of Gollum in the first movie, just as there were in the book: Gollum padding after the Fellowship in Moria, Gollum climbing the tree in Lothlorien, Gollum paddling down Anduin on a log. But I hope we don't see him in full, just get hints. Like at the end when Frodo and Sam start off across the Emyn Muil, maybe we'll see a shadow following . . .
• Wow, I was thinking about this last night! - Gorel
  I often wonder about Gollum's appearance, because Tolkien leaves so much room to do so, as you point out. And I was trying to be more creative than usual last night because I was putting myself in PJ's shoes. I think he has an opportunity that Tolkien didn't (or couldn't) take full advantage of, which is to constantly evoke the pity and revulsion that Frodo feels towards Gollum through his appearance. Tolkien would have gotten annoying if he had stopped to describe Gollum every page, but on the screen PJ gets this for free. If PJ's art department does its job right, every second Gollum is on screen will be a reminder of the horror of the Ring and Frodo's own predicament in bearing it. Anwyay, my new idea last night was mottled skin. Gollum is described as very pale, but I think that could include blotches and scars and various ill looking discolorations. If he makes Gollum look terribly diseased but magically preserved, it will only make him more pitiable.

• That's hard to think about. - GaladrielTX
  It's a bleak picture you paint. In fact, I think I feel for him more now than I did reading about him in Tolkien's words. I've never disliked Gollum, but I've never found it easy to sympathize with him, either.
• That's powerful, Gorel - Kimi
  And very insightful.

• Great thoughts, Gorel. - Steve D
• Book IV, Chapter 1, "The Taming of Smeagol": brains and brawn - Kyriel
  When Sam and Frodo decide to climb down a cliff, Sam immediately starts over the edge, but Frodo pulls him back and takes his place. He is the first to go down, but slips and nearly kills himself when the Nazgul shrieks overhead.

• Some more thoughts. - septembrist
  I think Frodo was entirely frustrated with their lack of progress and was expressing that in his haste to descend.

• some ideas - Gorel
  Maybe it has to do more with Frodo being in charge, and not wanting to share what he sees as his sacrifice with Sam. After all, he tried to spare Sam from the end of the quest altogether by leaving him at Amon Hen.
  The next two iadeas are more speculative because I can't look up quotes right now.
  One, Frodo seems to have gained some sense, which he shares wnith Gandalf, that he is meant to take the Ring to Orodruin. I'm not saying he has complete faith in that, or even that he senses he will succeed once he gets there. But I remember that he says a couple of things that suggest his own destiny in this regard. And so maybe he feels a certain amount of protection, because his doom will preserve him for Sammath Naur.
  Second, he seems to be getting in more of a hurry the closer they get to Mordor. I think the Ring is drawing him there even as the menace of the Eye weakens him. Maybe his eagerness to take the lead is part of an increasing impatience, a rashness closer to panic than to wisdom.
  Or it could be all of these things combined in his confused mind.
• my thoughts on this... - Hmpf
  are that maybe we underestimate Frodo's adeptness at things like mountaineering ;-) and overestimate Sam's. Frodo may be the brains and Sam may be the brawn, but Frodo is not the kind of hobbit who would spend all their time in their library. He's actually, maybe, more used to outdoor living than Sam, at least at the beginning of LOTR, because he's been taken hiking by Bilbo often. I imagine that the average Hobbiton hobbit wouldn't go hiking very often - this is not what most hobbits would see as fun, Bilbo and Frodo were unusually adventurous. Also, in childhood, Frodo seems to have been 'wilder' than he is now, even crossing the Brandywine to steal mushrooms, and going into the Old Forest occasionally (just like Merry). It may well be he's had some experience 'freeclimbing' *g*, though certainly not under as extreme circumstances as in the Emyn Muil. Sam, on the other hand, probably hadn't.
• Book IV, Chapter 1, "The Taming of Smeagol": Whose will? - Kyriel
  Trapped in the Emyn Muil, Frodo says, "It's my doom, I think, to go to that Shadow yonder, so that a way will be found. But will good or evil show it to me? What hope we had was in speed. Delay plays into the Enemy's hands - and here I am: delayed. Is it the will of the Dark Tower that steers us? All my choices have proved ill."

• Ring Vs. Ring - Skywalker
  It seems clear to me that The Ring is driving both Frodo and Gollum. Gollum is clearly steering Frodo toward Minus Morgal and Shelob hoping, as he says, to pick from among the remains of the hobbit The Ring. In the Silmarillion it states that The Ring will search out its true master. Should Gollum succeed, this would definitely bring The Ring closer to its master as it’s doubtful that Gollum would hold on to it very long before falling into the hands of Sauron. On the other hand, it seems plausible that The Ring is very much aware of Frodo’s intentions and could be subconsciously causing him to fail in his efforts to escape the mountains. At this point, his outward will is still stronger than the will of The Ring. Remember, that from Bree up until this point, Frodo always had either Gandalf or Aragorn there to guide and direct him. His first efforts alone nearly fail. Thus, we see two wills, both controlled by The Ring, working together to escape the mountains and bring the ring back to The Dark Lord, yet, in the end, working against each other and ultimately allowing the Ring to be destroyed. Sort of split personality thing.
• Okay... I'll give this a try... though I should be working for my exams... - Hmpf

>Whose will - if any - do you think is directing Frodo and Sam at this point in the story? Is the Dark Tower really causing these delays (as evidenced by the storm and strange darkness they see)?
I don't think any will is *leading* them in the Emyn Muil. The darkness and the storm *are* probably caused by Sauron, but they do not directly influence Frodo's and Sam's choices where to turn. The geographical conditions at the Emyn Muil just *are* kind of unfavourable for two hobbits without a map. ;-) The way Tolkien is describing it, it doesn't sound as if there would be any way down, except for the 'way' they finally take...
>And when a way IS found out of the Emyn Muil, but it comes through Gollum.
Does it? I always thought the Emyn Muil was just the mountainrange around Nen Hithoel, and the way they finally found was climbing down to the plain with the Elven rope?
>Is HE being steered by good or evil (or both) forces?
Gollum might be steered by both forces, I think. On the surface, he's under the influence of Sauron, of course, but then, if Gollum wouldn't have done exactly what he did, the quest would never have been achieved, so maybe there's some other influence there. And maybe not, at least not directly. Maybe it's just part of Eru's 'plan' for the world that evil is always helping its own downfall involuntarily.
>Do you think the Valar are at work in any of this, and if you do, how do you reconcile this with their decision in The Sil to remove themselves from direct involvement with Middle-earth?
I don't think the Valar are involved.
>How about Eru - is he involved? Or are Frodo and Sam entirely responsible for their own fates?
Eru may or may not be involved, it's hard to tell - and it's even harder to determine in which *way* he would be involved. Gandalf occasionally hints at another power being at work, and I feel it's more likely that this power would be Eru than one of the Valar, but, as I already stated above, it may be that Eru's involvement is very indirect - that part of the events, or at least the principles *behind* those events, were already determined since the creation of Arda...

Inferno
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• Book IV, Chapter 2: Chapter summary - Idril Celebrindal
  Chapter 2, "The Passage of the Marshes" takes Frodo, Samwise and Gollum from the foothills of the Emyn Muil through the Dead Marshes to the very outskirts of Mordor. As they draw closer to Mordor, the landscape becomes warped from Sauron's evil and from the aftermath of the great battle fought there at the end of the Second Age. At each stage, the land becomes more ruined. Amidst the reeds and pools of the Dead Marshes, they see the images of warriors, uncannily preserved for thousands of years and lighted by the candles of the corpses. A flying Ringwraith swoops low over the marshes, perhaps sensing the Ring, leaving them all in terror. As they approach the mountains of Mordor, they enter a wrecked, desolate landscape that shows the power of Sauron to torture and corrupt the very earth.

• Great Job! :) - Steve D
• You kept us busy this week! :-) - Hmpf
  I wish I could have tackled the other questions, too, but I was busy by the end of the week... :-( Anyway, great discussion starters and suggestions, thanks!
• Thanks, Indril. - Nenya
  As always, I leave with a far greater appreciation of what I've been reading than I came in with. Your questions and insights this week have been mind-boggling, to say the least. I can only imagine the amount of time you must have put into organizing this week. Thank you.
• Idril: wow. An absolutely stunning job. Thank you, thank you, thank you. - Kimi
• Idril, your work on this chapter is just excellent... - Patty
  many thought provoking questions, photos and insights. I can't say it better than Frodo Hoy..we have all benefited greatly from your interest in this time in Tolkien's life and its effect on him. Thanks so much!
• Idril, you exceeded your own very high standards of scholarship this time - bravo!!! - Frodo Hoy
  I am awed by the care and meticulous research that is evident in your presentation. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for your labor of love. It benefitted us all.
• Book IV, Chapter 2: Wraithses - Idril Celebrindal
  But the shadow of horror wheeled and returned, passing lower now, right above them, sweeping the fen-reek with its ghastly wings. And then it was gone, flying back to Mordor with the speed of the wrath of Sauron ...

• I like Annael's suggestion - Kimi
  of the proximity to Sauron actually making it harder for the wraiths to clearly detect the Ring.

• He wasn't sure I figured - Temujin
  When I read that passage I assumed the Wraith thought he sensed something, had another look, then got about his urgent business. You've got to figure he was in a hurry about something important for the big S and short of him finding the one ring, he might not have wanted to be bothered by it.

• to clarity - Temujin
  By 'finding the one ring' I meant either seeing/sensing it clearly or stumbling on to it :)
• No answers here, just more wondering... - Hmpf
  I've been wondering about the ability of the Ringwraiths to 'feel' the presence of the Ring very often. Aragorn states on Weathertop (I think) that they *can* sense the Ring, in a way, but it seems to me they can't sense it very clearly, as they often come close to it (Minas Morgul is another such occasion) but turn away at the last moment. I really don't know what to think of it...
• I wonder . . . - Annael
  what exactly would they feel when near the Ring? Since it's made with Sauron's power, I wonder if they mostly feel his presence? It may actually be harder for them to feel the Ring near or inside Mordor, since Sauron has colored so much of that land with his own aura. Perhaps when the wraith stooped lower over the Dead Marshes, the signal of the Ring got confused with whatever sorcery was at work keeping the faces & candles there?
• Book IV, Chapter 2: The cold hard lands - Idril Celebrindal
  The cold hard lands
  They bites our hands
  They gnaws our feet
  The rocks and stones
  Are like old bones
  All bare of meat

• I think this is Smeagol's "humanity" - Kimi
  showing through. He was once a hobbit, and meeting Frodo and Sam has brought a wisp of the old Smeagol back to life.

• Yes good analysis - Narya
  And I think that Gollum has been stronger than Smeagol for an awful long time. The meeting with Frodo and Sam strengthens Smeagol to such an extent that he is able to gain the ascendancy for the first time in years. But it's not complete ascendancy.

• Book IV, Chapter 2: A sense of growing horror - Idril Celebrindal
  Throughout this chapter, the sense of horror increases as the Hobbits travel from the bleak Emyn Muil through the Dead Marshes and into the desolation of Mordor. How does Tolkien create this sense of impending horror? Why? What purpose does it serve in the narrative?
• Who needs a reason for horror? - Bullroarer
  Seriously, though, I think (and I hope my position as the reigning authority on horror is undisputed) that the growing horror here accomplishes many things.

• Wow! And that ain't no bull! - Frodo Hoy
  Or is it? ;-P

• Well said! - Greyhame
  I totally agree with the concept of Mordor as the personification of Sauron. We as readers are becoming uncomfortably close with a power that seemed at arms length. With this intimacy of desolation the quest's sense of hopelessness turns quite strongly to despair.

• Horror and tension - D'Artagnan
  I think mainly by the transition in setting. The Emyn Muil is bleak but not affected by Sauron. Then they go to the Dead Marshes with the bodies floating below the water and the corpse candles, very eerie and unnatural. And then they arrive in a landscape that is completely horrible and destroyed without a sense of naturalness at all to it.

• And also a morbid curiosity - Narya
  We know so little about him. Yet now the threesome are getting closer and closer to him with every step. As the tension and the horror mounts, so the sense of curiosity heightens, with the expectation that sooner or later, it is going to be fulfilled.
• Book IV, Chapter 2: Three of a perfect pair - Idril Celebrindal
  How would you characterize the relationship between Frodo and Gollum? Between Sam and Gollum?

• There is a big and essential difference between Frodo and Sam. - Nenya
  Sam is a practical man. He sees the world as it is, and he doesn't really bother himself with what if's. As practical men are wont to be, Sam can be harsh in his judgments of others, and is suspicious by nature.

• Excellent, Nenya. This is my take on it , too. - Patty
• Frodo puts his trust in Gollum because he has to. - Kimi
  Frodo's going on because he must go on. He must have a guide, and Gollum is the only possible guide.

• I agree with you - Greyhame
  wholeheartedly on your assessment of Sam and Gollum's relationship. I had not thought of it that way before. It does seem to put Sam at a loss as Frodo's servant.
  I had always seen their relationships through the filter of the ring. Frodo as the bearer of the ring is aware that he holds ultimate influence over Smeagol. Frodo also has a great deal of empathy for the wretched creature because he carries the weight of the ring himself and perhaps sees a shadow of himself in Smeagol. Frodo's described incandescence or glowing quality hearkens to Smeagol's pale lamp-like eyes. But ultimately, Frodo feels no fear because he is Smeagol's master as long as he holds the one ring.
  Sam ,on the other hand, has no such empathy for Smeagol and doesn't understand Frodo's domination of the will of Smeagol. He sees him as the sum total of Slinker and Stinker (and has a fear that Stinker is the dominant one).
• Book IV, Chapter 2: Power of the Ring - Idril Celebrindal
  As the Ring is borne closer to Mordor, it exerts its power more strongly. What effect does this have on Frodo? Sam? Gollum?
• Sam seems immune - Kimi
  Except in as much as he's aware of Frodo's suffering, and does his best to care for him.

• Book IV, Chapter 2: Resolve and despair - Idril Celebrindal
  Sam my dearest hobbit, friend of friends - I do not think we need give thought to what comes after that. To do the job as you put it - what hope is there that we ever shall? And if we do, who knows what will come of that? If the One goes into the Fire, and we are at hand? I ask you, Sam, are we ever likely to need bread again? I think not. If we can nurse our limbs to bring us to Mount Doom, that is all we can do. More than I can, I begin to feel.

• Frodo is convinced that he will die - Kimi
  whether he succeeds in destroying the Ring or not. He has no hope that he will survive, and only the slightest of hopes that he will succeed. He's ploughing on because he no longer has any real choice. To say that duty is driving him seems facile at this point. His choices are to lie down and die where he is, or to carry on. He's perilously close to despair; not a despair that will lead to inaction, but a despair of the soul.

• Hmmmmmmmm.... - Hmpf
  - How has Frodo's attitude changed since the breaking of the Fellowship?

• This is one of my favorite moments. - Annael
  I think both Frodo has been slowly figuring out for the last couple of months that this might well be a one-way trip. At first he hoped just to get to Rivendell & see Bilbo, and go home again. Then he volunteered at the Council to take the Ring all the way to Mordor, but at that point he was still safe in Rivendell, and it was just not possible to really take in what such a job entailed. By the time they'd gotten to Parth Galen he was beginning to realize it, but he was forced to take the next step by Boromir before he could really screw up his courage to it - he was reacting, not acting, at this point. Now there is nothing but his own will driving him on, and he is just now fully accepting what it is he has committed to do.

• How much did Frodo realize... - Hmpf
  >Then he volunteered at the Council to take the Ring all the way to Mordor, but at that point he was still safe in Rivendell, and it was just not possible to really take in what such a job entailed.

• Book IV, Chapter 2: Landscape of industry - Idril Celebrindal
  The desolation of Mordor also contains elements of industrial landscapes, such as slag and ash heaps. I used to live in Pittsburgh near the site where J&L Steel dumped a century's worth of slag. It really remind me of the desolation described in this chapter. England, of course, had many similarly blighted areas.

• Industry and modern warfare... - Hmpf
  - Does this interpretation contradict or complement the idea that the landscapes of this chapter were inspired by modern warfare?

• JRRT is somewhat anti-technology - Mr Kimi
  JRRT seems have a strong feeling for the ruined landscape of heavy industry. Sauron makes things that belch smoke and kill trees, so does Saruman and, on a much smaller scale, Ted Sandyman (with Saruman's encouragement/help).

• grrrr... I just lost a very long, very thought-through reply to this - Hmpf
  by doing something stupid with the keyboard. Sometimes I hate computers. Okay, I'll try again. *sigh*

Well, of course people in Rohan and Gondor used iron and steel, and hobbits had brass buttons, so there must have been some mining activity, but there's a huge difference between the amount of mining that would be necessary to keep Rohan and Gondor's weapons 'industry' ('industry' in the meaning it has in archaeology, not with the 'heavy industry' connotation) running and a 'real' heavy industry. I don't think there was too much damage to nature through mining in ME, at least not through mining by the men of Rohan and Gondor or by the hobbits. As for production of things like weapons, I always imagined that as small-scale, by individual artisans and craftspeople. 'Individual' is the important word here, and as a craftsperson myself I can understand Tolkien's point very well. Whatever Sauron did, it was *mass* production for his masses of slaves/soldiers. I believe the term of 'heavy industry' only applies to Sauron's and Saruman's activities in ME, and not to anything men or hobbits or even dwarfs are doing.
However, as you pointed out, maybe Sauron was doing something else, really. I think you hit the nail on the head with this - it just occurred to me that any kind of healthy life would be a part of Iluvatar's greater plan, or make that a sign of Yavanna's work. Sauron could only reign over a dead country, it was the only way his power could be absolute. In a more 'healthy' country (e.g. Ithilien) there would always be the forces of good at work - at least until Sauron's evil had poisoned the entire country.
Saruman displays signs of the same behaviour already, although he is not yet as evil as Sauron. I think it is stated somewhere that not all the machines in Isengard had any purpose, Saruman obviously loved machines just for their own sake. Also, his orcs destroyed trees without any special purpose, just for the 'fun' of destruction. I suppose it's a way of defying the Valar, or probably Eru himself.
As for Ted Sandyman, he's in a different league still. He is motivated, to some degree, by the same impulses, but he does not seem to favour destruction just for the sake of it - at least not consciously. Ted Sandyman is fascinated with 'modern life', with 'progress' - progress meaning for him increasing speed and efficiency. Machines and mass production fascinate him, and he doesn't even stop to think if they are really necessary, or desirable in the greater scheme of things.
Well, that's what I could 'resurrect' from my accidentally deleted post. The first version of it was better, though. ;-)

• I agree with much you that you say - Mr Kimi
  And I like the notion that Sauron was deliberately defying Iluvatar by wrecking the landscape. I think the orc's cutting down of trees 'for no purpose' is not qualitatively different, though. They may be less conscious of why they are doing it but they are doing it as a deliberate act of evil, which is (probably by definition) defiance of Iluvatar. You can probably group most of what Saruman does under the same heading. Does Saurman like machines for their own sake? Is it partly because he can create something apart from Iluvatar's plan?

• Dwarves more sensitive to earth, though - D'Artagnan
  I think the dwarves were more sensitive to the earth than Sauron and the orcs. Instead of dumping their mine debris, waste, etc. all over the place like the orcs did they must have disposed of it in a more organized fashion that would not have destroyed the area around their settlements. There must be dump areas around places like the Lonely Mountain, but they woudl have been in out-of-the-way places that would not be noticed. As opposed to Sauron, who deliberately created wastelands.

• More agreement... but - Mr Kimi
  I'm probably thinking about differently, possibly wrongly.

• Living leaves traces, that can't be helped. - Hmpf
  But we can control, to some degree, how bad the traces we leave are. So I guess the 'good guys' in ME were considerate, trying not to ruin too much. :-)
• Book IV, Chapter 2: The Dead Marshes - Idril Celebrindal
  Gollum leads Frodo and Sam through the Dead Marshes both as a shortcut to the gates of Mordor and as a way to avoid enemies. A natural landscape in many ways, the Dead Marshes also contain elements of supernatural horror.

• I don't think the dead physically exist in the marshes - Kimi
  But I wonder if their apparent presence has something in common with Gimli's remark that to Elves "Memory is more like to the waking world than to a dream." Perhaps the weight of death and loss concentrated in this sad region gives history a little of that strength, even to mortals.
• Remember, Gollum tried to reach the dead once - Cat of Queen Berúthiel
  - and couldn't. So they are some sort of apparitions, conjured up by the lights and the marshes and the memories. I agree with your statement, Kimi.
• Very good questions, all... - Hmpf
  - How does this compare with Aragorn's leading the Hobbits through the Midgewater Marshes?

• Midgewater marshes foreshadow Dead marshes - D'Artagnan
• Answer to: 'What causes the candles of the corpses?' - Cat of Queen Berúthiel
  From "The Last Word", New Scientist, 26th August 200:
  The question asked by a reader was:
  "The following is from a gazetteer, pubilshed in 1790, about Harlech in Wales. 'A remarkable phenomenon was seen near this town in the year 1694 and it continued abou the space of eight months. It was a livid vapour, or fiery exhalation which seemed to arise from the sea….It made its first appearance on the side of a bay, a little after sunset, and from thence spread itself in the most gradual manner, until it had set all the houses in the neighbourhood on fire. Not only the ricks of hay…..were destroyed, but also the vegetables in the gardens, for it had so noxious a smell that everything perished where it diffused its baleful influence…..It made its appearance regularly every night, always rising at the same place; nor did it stop its course either by rain or storms. It was sometimes visible by day, but it was very remarkable that it never did any damage except in the night. The flames were no way violent, but its continuance at last consumed everything that opposed it…..' "

• The battles between The Last Alliance and Morder... - Ron Austin
  Must have included some pretty heavy enchantments. The Marshes might be similar to the Barrow-Downs in that evil spirits inhabit the Battlefields.
• Fascinating - Annael
  I for one can never get enough of what Mr. Annael calls "fun science factoids!"
• Then what you need is... - Cat of Queen Berúthiel
  this link

• I think the landscaped might have been a little influenced - dudalb
  by his WW1 experiences, but the real influence, IMHO, shows up in the journey through Mordor.The landscape of Mordor sounds like descriptions of No Man's Land on the Western Front.

• Book IV, Chapter 2: Do the Orcs represent the Germans? - Idril Celebrindal
  This is a bit off-topic for the chapter, but it fits into the context of our Tolkien and World War I discussion. Do you think the Orcs represent the Germans?

• Orcs are not Germans - FX
  Tolkien was writing about goblins just after World War I. Arathorn had it right when he said they were figures of archtypical evil. They embody in his writings all the bad sociological traits and despicable manners and speech.
  As a matter of fact, even though Tolkien fought in some horrendous battles in World War I, he was always an admirer of the Saxon heritage, the Nordic and Old German languages, their roots and mythology. The poem, "The Voluspa" or in english, "The Prophesy of the Seeress" an Old German mythological lay had a great impact upon Tolkien. He had a romantic admiration of their peoples. In fact, he was a capable translater of German.
  It was true however, that the war was a life shaping experience - an utterly brutal affair. It killed off most of the friends with whom he had shared his literary visions, but conversely their deaths were catalytic events, filling him with a determination to vindicate their dreams and hopes by pursuing his own life's ambition- the writing of a Great mythological epic. Within months after returning to England he did just that.
  He started on the Silmirallion.
  He had begun it earlier in the Lay of Eariendel, but now expanded to the Siege of Gondolin, the last elfin kingdom

• well well - Arathorn
  Tolkien despised the analogy ring/nuke, so i doubt it.
  as said, I think orcs are a kind of archetype of evil swarms ruining lands and countries. So he could see them partly as Huns, partly as Mongols, partly as Nazis, without a clear allegory of a given people.
  However the fact that the worst destructions Tolkien could experience at his time were caused by Germans could have had some influence; showung him that men can be especially evil for instance, leading him to portray orcs as even fiercer creatures...

• Movie Orcs - Steve D
  I think it's important that in the movies we feel some pity for the Orcs, along with disgust and horror.

• Re: Star Wars - Hmpf
  When did you feel pity for the stormtroopers? I don't remember any scenes in which they seemed human. Their body armour made them seem pretty much like robots, and they were killed as mercilessly as robots. Don't get me wrong, I like the first three Star Wars movies, but I always disliked that the enemy soldiers were depicted so devoid of personality, as little more than killing (and dying) machines. Han, Luke, and Leia never seemed to have any qualms about killing them.
  (BTW, and totally Off Topic: I saw Star Wars and Blade Runner for the first time at around the same time, some four years ago, and I found these movies to be complementing each other in a way: In Star Wars, humans who looked and behaved like robots were killed and the heroes didn't really mind, apparently, and in Blade Runner, robots who looked and behaved like humans were killed, but the hero did begin to feel bad about it...)
• ship's crew - Steve D
  I was thinking more of the space ship crewmembers. You could see their faces and also feel their fear of Darth Vader.
• stormtroopers - Arathorn
  well, wait for episodes 2 and 3 and you'll understand all this ;=)

• They are the Huns, not the Germans - D'Artagnan
  The barbarian hordes that destroyed civilization and culture. The propaganda version of the Germans, not the real ones.
• Nazi's not Huns. - Steve D
  Good point, but I think it's important that the Orcs are not primative barbarians like the historical Huns but civilized people, Elves, who have been corrupted by evil. Like the Nazi's.
• How do I interpret your question? - Nenya
  I think that the answer has to be "no" if you are asking if Tolkien intended the orcs to be representative of the German army. However, if you are asking if a case could be made comparing orcs to the perception of the German army by the occupied nations of WWI, then the answer would be yes. The orcs are almost cliche caricatures of the enemy, perfect for a fable of Good vs. Evil or for a country at war's PR concerning The Enemy.

• The problem of orcs - Kimi
  Tolkien struggled with this himself. In a letter written not long after the publication of LOTR, someone had referred to the "bad theology" of an apparently unredeemable race. Tolkien countered that, as rational creatures, they must potentially be redeemable (or it would indeed be "bad theology"), but that each orc appeared so damaged that it was incapable of turning from evil (I'm paraphrasing, and poorly at that, as I don't have "Letters" with me). He pointed out that this is sometimes done to people in the "real world"; i.e. they are so abused and tortured that they know nothing but evil. His orcs, he said, were no more "bad theology" than these real-life victims.

• This is what has always troubled me about the Orcs ... - Idril Celebrindal
  The fact that they are unredeemable. It is very different from the way that everyone else in LOTR, no matter how vile, gets a second chance at redemption. Even lost spirits like Gollum, Sauron, and Saruman have the opportunity to forsake their evil ways (although admittedly Sauron's chance comes long before the events in the book). The Orcs don't. And that is why I wonder if they do not represent something more primal in people, the dark side of the human psyche that causes apparently normal people to perform horrible deeds. A stain that cannot be wiped out, no matter how much the forces of good try, because it is latent inside everyone.

• pondering the orcs... - Hmpf
  >Even lost spirits like Gollum, Sauron, and Saruman have the opportunity to forsake their evil ways (although admittedly Sauron's chance comes long before the events in the book). The Orcs don't. And that is why I wonder if they do not represent something more primal in people, the dark side of the human psyche that causes apparently normal people to perform horrible deeds. A stain that cannot be wiped out, no matter how much the forces of good try, because it is latent inside everyone.

• Gandalf said - Steve D
  to Denethor, "As for me, I pity even his slaves." (I think that's right.)

• ATTENTION: MAJOR DISCLAIMER: IMPORTANT - Steve D
  "Elves undergo reincarnation so maybe killing
  the Orcs is the best thing for them. Then they can come back in some
  other form and have a new chance at goodness. Yeah, I think that's the
  answer."

• maybe I got too worked up - Steve D
  I just had this picture of someone going on a killing spree and then saying, "Well, Steve D at TORN said it's good to kill evil people so they can be reincarnated."
• If that is the answer, it is a harsh one. - Nenya
  I have read (sorry, can't remember the source) that Tolkien's cycle of reincarnations was like a continuing downward spiral, with each a slightly lesser elf than the previous. I know that Arwen was not the reincarnation of Luthien (since Luthien died mortal) but this still an example of Tolkien's "recycling of themes" and it could still be an example. Arwen did not have the "presence" that Luthien commanded; she was a reflection of the greatness that had been. This really doesn't bode well for orc reincarnation.
• interesting point - Steve D
  Maybe they wouldn't come back as Elves at all, but as some lesser being. Still better than being an Orc.
• I don't think so - Kimi
  I don't think Tolkien would have seen the Germans as monsters, which the orcs certainly are.

• Whoa . . . - Annael
  I'm having one of those insight moments after reading your post Kimi!

• Elves are not perfect. - Steve D
  Great insight, Annael. I don't think Elves are perfect. Look at their revolt against the Valar and the kin-slaying, among other things.

• I don't think so - Narya
  The Germans in World Wars I and II were feared and hated , but they were never viewed as cowards or traitors.

• yes - Steve D
  Right on. Of course Tolkien wasn't anti-German and I'm sure he didn't make blanket judgements about any ethnic group.
• YES!!! and NO!!! - Steve D
  This is so great!!! I was just thinking about this. Tolkien himself was from German ancestory and I think he thought of himself as Germanic.

• Good point, Steve - Idril Celebrindal
  I had not thought of the parallels between Tolkien's use of Germannic myths and the Nazis. Thanks for pointing that out! Tolkien and Hitler's propagandists were drawing on the same source material but producing opposing results. In one of his letters, Tolkien expresses his anger at Hitler for corrupting what he saw as the noble spirit and mythos of the Germannic people. (Can't remember which one, though.)
• No. - Annael
  I think that the Haradrim were better representatives of the Germans - Men, with an old grievance against the Gondorians, misled by their dictator into believing they had a reason to fight them once again.

• Irony - Hmpf
  >I think that the Haradrim were better representatives of the Germans - Men, with an old grievance against the Gondorians, misled by their dictator into believing they had a reason to fight them once again.

• Book IV, Chapter 2: Lieutenant Frodo and Corporal Samwise - Idril Celebrindal
  Many people have analyzed Frodo and Sam's relationship in terms of master and servant. However, it can also be considered in terms of officer and enlisted man.

- How do the stresses and horrors that Sam and Frodo face compare to those of soldiers in battle? How does it affect their relationship?
- In the British Army of the 19th and early 20th century, a private or non-commissioned officer was often assigned as an officer's batman, acting both as an assistant and a servant. Do you think Sam serves in this capacity to Frodo?

• Master and Sarvant certaintly ... - Ron Austin
  At least Sam thinks of himself as a servant. I think that the relationship is closer to brothers than servant at least as the story progresses. Frodo was raised at Bag End by Bilbo and Sam grew up close to the family. Hobbits tend to have large extended families and Bilbo and Frodo seem to have considered Sam and his family in this respect.
• Officer and "man" - Kimi
  I don't see it as a military relationship in a highly-structured chain-of-command sense. But the terrors and suffering that these two endure together certainly forges a new relationship between them, of absolute trust and warm affection. This is something that many writers report happening between people who share the experience of war; I've also heard women talk of intense friendships springing up between women who were strangers if they go through childbirth at around the same time (especially their first babies).

• I think their relationship can be viewed in both lights - Idril Celebrindal
  Certainly the master-servant paradigm explains much of Frodo and Sam's relationship. But I think the officer-enlisted man paradigm sheds some light on it, too. As Kimi points out, the relationship is not a formal one in the military sense. But Frodo is certainly in charge of the expedition; it's he who decides where to go and to trust Gollum as a guide. Sam is the subordinate who helps Frodo to carry out his mission.

• That works, in a very British kind of way. - Nenya
  We have a peacetime Lieutenant and Corporal - the Lieutenant does whatever it is Lieutenants do during peacetime, while the trusty corporal sees that the Lieutenant is supplied with coffee, types up his memos, and sees that the jeep is always gassed up in case they are suddenly called to HQ with no notice.

• Not a real military relationship. - Lorgalis
  I have always viewed Frodo and Sam as friends, never as soldiers.
  I think they lack that background. Still it is on Frodo to take the decisions (mostly), but even though they went to some battles, the will never make up good warriors.
  Their relationship becomes stronger all the way, relying on each other as much as they can, which can also happen to military people on a long campaign. Still I would not count them in military ranks.
• I, too, do not picture this as a military relationship. - Frodo Hoy
  I may be a tainted observer because I spent a few years in the U.S. Navy back in the 70's and saw no action. Though my ship was involved in operations in the Med. during the Yom Kippur War of '73, that is NOTHING like what was experienced by WW I soldiers. However, this relationship doesn't particularly strike me as military. It does seem to be more like a congenial master/servant relationship than anything else.
• But the loyalty inspired, Frodo Hoy! - Nenya
  That bond between Frodo and Sam was far more than that between a master and servant. Even in the most congenial of relationships between butler and master there is the knowledge that the butler is there to serve. I'm not saying that affection cannot grow, but I am saying that it is unlikely that the depths of each will be plumbed by the other. A master/servant relationship implies a class (or caste, if you prefer).

• I'm not saying that the relationship didn't develop and deepen over time, - Frodo Hoy
  I was merely trying to give my opinion that it wasn't particularly a military parallel.

• Book IV, Chapter 2: The landscape of nightmare - Idril Celebrindal
  Dreadful as the Dead Marshes had been, and the arid moors of the Noman-lands, more loathsome far was the country that the crawling day now slowly unveiled to his shrinking eyes. … Here nothing lived, not even the leprous growths that feed on rottenness. The gasping pools were choked with ash and crawling muds, sickly white and grey, as if the mountains had vomited the filth of their entrails on the lands about.

• Worth noting - Bullroarer
  Battlefields like this had never been seen before WWI. In the wars of the nineteenth centuries, armies would arrive on the battlefield, fight, and leave. There was nothing like this constant shelling and digging and burning and dying that the battlefields of the FIrst World War experienced.

• Yes. Extremely chilling, excellent work. - Patty
• The next-to-last pic certainly has a 'Saruman's orcs were here' feel to it. - Hmpf
  Or, respectively, a 'Sauron's orcs were here' feeling.
• More Marshes-West Front - Carbo

• Excellent observation ... - Idril Celebrindal
  I had been concentrating on the Somme because Tolkien fought there and would have had first-hand experience of the hideous conditions of that battlefield. But I agree with you that elements of the Dead Marshes may be drawn from Passchendaele as well as the Somme. Certainly the image of decaying, drowned soldiers rotting away in the mud is one that strongly suggests Passchendaele.

• Powerful photos, Idril. Thanks for all this excellent research. - GaladrielTX
  In what will at first seem off topic, I recently spent a day at Volcanoes National Park on the Big Island of Hawaii. I had an opportunity to view lots of craters and old lava flows, one of which was four square miles in area. I had always thought of the lands in and around Mordor as volcanic waste or desert. So I tried comparing what I was seeing to the images Tolkien painted of Sauron's lands. As dramatic as the landscape was, I could not summon the loathing he expresses so well in the books. The lands seemed bleak but peaceful, and life springs forth from the lava remarkably quickly. There was nothing sickening about the landscape that I could see.

• Few of us can properly understand - Narya
  How truly horrible it must have been to have been a combat soldier during World War One. I think that any human being would have been indelibly marked by the experience.

• Never forget - Annael
  I wonder if the dead lands express a feeling that war should leave as permanent a marker on the land as it does on the psyche of those who participate in it. If it did so, we might be less eager to rush into it again? Imagine if all the battlefields in the world never recovered, were never again covered by green plants and cows grazing. (I remember reading once that animals that graze in certain fields in France have very strong bones - the plants are leaching calcium out of all the bones in the soil.)

• Thanks Idril, - Greyhame
  for bringing a deeper layer of depth and understanding to this chapter. I agree with all the posts here, but wanted to add something off topic which relates to Annael's response.
  It is with a sort of bitter-sweet irony that I view our contepmorary western culture of peace and prosperity. I am very fortuate not to have to directly experience the hardship of war, its loss, its theft of loved ones. Since I was born in 72, I can't even recall the Vietnam war. War has become almost abstract in its images on TV and cinema (not to mention videogames). I currently work very closely with some artists out of Bosnia and Croatia and their view of war is a fresh one. One that makes me pause to think. Why does the peace and prosperity for which our recent relatives suffered so much, breed a complacency that leads to many of modern cultural ailments. Teen violence, Voter apathy, wasting natural resources... to name but a few.

• Ow, poor baby! - Annael
  Are you giving him Tylenol? Try giving him ice water to drink. Sucking on popsicles may feel good. Don't give him citrus ones though, the citric acid will hurt. Also, you can make a rinse by mixing liquid antacid and liquid Benadryl (diphenhydramine), if the kid is old enough to know how to swish it around and spit it out. There are also prescription meds your doc can give you.
• Land mines make this somewhat true - Mr Kimi
  There are lots of places in the world that landmines make unsafe to use the land anymore. There are fields that would be productive but are too dangerous to farm (and there are people who are so poor they have to risk it anyway).

• Book IV, Chapter 2: Tolkien and World War I - Idril Celebrindal
  One has indeed personally to come under the shadow of war to feel fully its oppression; but as the years go by it seems now often forgotten that to be caught in youth by 1914 was no less hideous an experience than to be involved in 1939 and the following years. By 1918, all but one of my close friends were dead.
  
  - JRR Tolkien, foreward to Lord of the Rings

• Effect of WW1 on JRRT - D'Artagnan
  I don't think JRRT is a WW1 writer in the sense that someone like Siegfried Sassoon or the poets people were quoting last week on the Main board, or even Ernest Hemingway are. All of these writers directly drew on their war experience and portrayed it in their stories and poetry. Tolkien did not do anything of the sort. A good case can be made for him being influenced by the war but he is not a war writer.

• Agree. I think that the fact that Tolkien experienced both... - Hmpf
  ...the 'darkness' of the First and the Second World War, makes his descriptions of the growing darkness and danger in Middle-earth so very 'authentic'. He really 'knew what he was talking about' in a way no modern fantasy writer could.

• Hiking experience: in "Letters" - Kimi
  (which I don't have with me today) he refers to a walking holiday in the Swiss Alps that he did in his teens, that obviously left a strong (very positive) impression on him.
• Fascinating, and horrifying, account. Well done. - Mr Kimi
• Agreed! I'm late in catching up, Idril...but thanks for this background! - Patty
• Have always wanted to know, HOW do you pronounce Ypres? - Banizar Galpsi
• Something like "Ee' pru" - Aradan
  Have always wanted to know, HOW do you pronounce Ypres?

Inferno
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Apr262009,4:03am

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• Book IV, Chapter 3 - The Black Gate is Closed #5 - Tales From the South - Blue Wizard
  Gollum, in telling Frodo and Sam about the alternate route into Mordor, tells them that they will pass near Minas Morgul: "The old fortress, very old, very horrible now. We used to hear tales from the South, when Smeagol was young, long ago. O yes, we used to tell lots of tales in the evening, sitting by the banks of the Great River, in the willowlands, when the River was younger too, gollum, gollum"... "Tales out the the South...about he tall men with the shining eyes, and their houses like hills of stone, and the silver crown of their King and his White Tree: wonderful tales. They built tall towers, and one they raised was silver-white, and in it there was a stone like the Moon, and round it were great white walls. O yes, there were many tales about the Tower of the Moon" A number of things strike me about this passage: - Minas Ithil had fallen something like 450 years prior to Smeagol's birth, but tales of the coming of the Numenorians and the building of Minas Ithil was still a story told around the fires of his people during his early lifetime. What does this tell us about both the similarities and differences between his people and the hobbits of the Shire? Consider that, although the Shire is more remote both in time and distance, the Shire hobbits seem, with the notable exceptions of folks like Bilbo and Frodo, not terribly interested in lore, or history, or much of anything beyond local gossip and family geneaology. - Gollum seems to be really enchanted by these tales of the splendor and beauty of Gondor at its peak, and appreciates that Minas Morgul is no longer beautiful, but terrible. In the Smeagol/Gollum dual personality, it seems that Smeagol has the upper hand here. - What about the stone like the moon? Is this the Ithil Stone, one of the palantir, or a stone like the black round stone at Erech? In light of Gandalf's statements about them earlier, it seems unlikely that the palantiri would be a matter of wide knowledge, such that the proto-Stoors would know of them in their tales. Or would they - after all, we are talking about tales being told hundreds of years earlier; perhaps much lore has indeed been lost?

• Blue-thanks for taking over this chapter.. - Patty
  making us see things with a different possible perspective, and doing it with your usual wit and wisdom.
• Hmmm interesting points - Narya
  1. I think tales were told in the Shire as well, e.g. the story of how golf was invented. Gollums family and the Shire hobbits probably both liked to tell tales of the distant past, although these were maybe far removed from the actual historic truth.. 2. Yes, Frodo & Sam bring out the better side of Gollum. They make him remember what he used to be. 3. 'Never considered this really, but I suppose "the stone" refers to the tower of the moon itself. I suspect the tower stood out in moonlight, and tales of it's splendour were passed down through generations of hobbits. This is probably totally wrong of course. But it is late on a Friday, after the pubs have just shut.
• A question of my own: - Kimi
  "when the River was younger too". Do you think the Great River was much different in Smeagol's childhood, c. 570 years before LOTR? What might have made it seem younger? To me that implies a river with more rapids, a narrower bed and a faster flow.

• I always thought - Aiya
  that was just a turn of phrase that made his speech sound more ancient and removed...

• Ronald Reagan used the same technique. - Narya

• political humor :) my favorite kind - Aiya
  And lately it's so easy... I have more jokes than I know what to do with
• Gollum's community does seem to have been - Kimi
  less insular than the hobbits of the Shire. I suppose news came up and down the Great River, which made them less isolated. I think the stone probably was the palantir. If there'd been another significant stone in Minas Ithil, I'd expect there to be more references to it. Gollum's telling of this tale is another poignant trace of the old Smeagol, I think; both in his appreciation of the beauty of the old Minas Ithil, and in his recalling of his childhood
• I'd go for the palantir - Arathorn
  Assuming it was known since it was of no use for Gondor, the secert could be lifted. Not to mention that Sauron shold have widely gloated about him taking a palantir back to Bard-Dur and reducing the beautiful city to pure evil.
  Then I found it strange too that Gollum knew of all this that happened centuries before his birth... ____________________________________
• Book IV, Chapter 3 - The Black Gate is Closed #4 - That would be my command. - Blue Wizard
  When Gollum is trying to convince Frodo not to attempt to enter Mordor through the Black Gate, he suggests that Frodo give him the Ring. Frodo admonishes him to never even think that again; he will never get it back. And he says that if Gollum does it again, Frodo could command him to cast himself into the fire and he would do so. Frodo tells Gollum "That would be my command." Now, it is easy enough to say that this is a bit of foreshadowing - Gollum does finally get his hands on the Ring, and he does fall into the Cracks of Doom. But, is it more? Did Gollum simply slip, or was he rather commanded by Frodo to cast himself in? And if that is the case, does this add yet another layer to Frodo's anguish that requires a purgatorial healing in the Grey Havens: Not only did he "fail" at the ultimate test, choosing to claim the Ring rather than destroy it, but that it was his "command" that caused Gollum to plunge into the fire?
• At this point, it wasn't a command, or a foreshadowing (IMHO) - Cat of Queen Berúthiel
  it was just Frodo telling Gollum to what desperate lengths he (Frodo) would go to to keep the ring. Frodo can be quite confident at this point that Gollum will never get the ring back, simply because Frodo has it and therefore control over Gollum. Saying 'And such would be my command' is a simple threat -and it works.
  However, when Gollum attacks Frodo on the slopes of Mount Doom, Frodo does give a command, "If you touch me ever again, you yourself shall be cast into the fires of Doom" (or something similar - sorry, no books here). This IS a command, and Gollum, in attacking Frodo at the Crack of Doom again, dooms himself.
  Somehow I always saw this as an evil thing destroying itself - through the power of the ring, Gollum, trying to do evil, ends up destroying it. I am not saying Gollum jumped in. I am also aware that Frodo is no longer 'in possesion' of the ring at that point. But the command had already been issued when Frodo was in control. And after getting hold of the ring, Gollum only needed that nudge in the wrong direction - which I always thought was provided by the evil of the ring itself. The ring doesn't 'think' as such. It only provides the means to do evil and can't see any consequences. Sort of cosmic justice. Maybe that is ultimately Eru?
• I agree with the comments below - Narya
  When Gollum fell, Frodo no longer wore the ring and so could not wield it. Any power or influence that the ring might have given Frodo was no more. Gollum slipped, and fell. It was an Act of God, as my insurance company would say.
• Simple foreshadowing.. I think.. - Aiya
  It is a good use of foreshadowing on Tolkien's part and it stays with us throughout the rest of the story- so that when we arrive at Mount Doom- deep inside something goes 'ah-ha.. I see.. Gollum got what was promised..' As for Frodo failing- I don't think he did. I think Elrond & co knew when they set out that it was an impossible task- no one can truly resist the power of the ring. Frodo was the best choice because he could hold out the longest against the temptation. So- in the end- he didn't fail- he just finally came to the end of an impossible road- and being mortal- he couldn't do the impossible. That's why he needed Smeagol- he had his own part to play in the story of the ring and because of that part- I don't think Frodo would have commanded his death. He knew how powerful the lure of the ring was.
• I'm in the "I don't think so" camp - Kimi
  It is indeed a nice piece of foreshadowing, and just possibly came into Gollum's mind at the crucial moment. But Frodo no longer wore the Ring at that point, and therefore couldn't command Gollum. In those few seconds, too, I doubt if Frodo was aware of much beyond his own pain. I think that as Gollum teetered on the brink, Eru made one of His rare interventions, and gave him a small nudge.
• Very interesting, Blue. However, I don't think so... - Patty
  I tend to think it was purely an accident that he stumbled and fell. But I had not thought of it in this light before.
• Tradgic chance - Phoebus
  I agree. I've always thought that it is Gollums death in the fire that conveys one of the books great messages. After Gollums tireless search for a glinting piece of treasure, as soon as he gets hold of it he looses it and his life. His search was fruitless and the ring brought him nothing.
• I imagine - Greyhame
  that we can all understand Frodo's failing of the ultimate test by claiming the ring as his own. At that point in the story, I think that none in Middle Earth ,save Bombadil, could resist the ring as long as and under the duress that Frodo did. In fact I never saw the episode at the cracks of doom as a failure on Frodo's part. And similarly, I never saw Frodo as having Smeagol's blood on his hands. In fact, I saw Smeagol as the fulfiller of the quest, a proof of Gandalf's foresight, and an indication of Tolkien's sense of irony. However, in direct response to your question, yes Frodo probably had to atone in the Havens for his self-percieved failure with the ring... If failure is what he felt. I dunno. I think he was just so incredibly shell-shocked, he had the emotional scars from the wraith-knife wound and psychological baggage from carrying the accursed ring without hope of success right into the living-room of Sauron.
  As to your question whether Gollum stumbled or Frodo commanded him into the pit, I think quite clearly that Frodo, having just had his finger bitten off and no longer in posession of the ring, was in no condition to command anyone. Furthermore, it is Gollum's gloating victory dance that does him in... Dubya Shrub beware ;-)
• Hmm. Don't think so. - Annael
  Right after the Ring is destroyed, Frodo seems to be calm & clear. He has done his duty (with help) and he seems quite resigned to death. It is Sam who insists on living. Later, Frodo never expresses a moment of regret or anguish over Gollum's death. It is his wounds and the loss of his "long burden" that make life in Middle-earth impossible for him. I think when Frodo threatened Gollum, it was just to impress him with the idea that Frodo would never give him the Ring, quite the opposite if Gollum ever tried to take it again. But I think at the end, Frodo did NOT give any such command. If he had done so, Gollum would not have been able to take the Ring, and Gollum DID take the Ring. At that point I think Frodo was incapable of wishing harm to the Ring. I'd rather think that Gollum's fall was indeed a fall from grace - by taking the Ring, he had crossed the line into total irredeemable evil. His fall is symbolic as well as real. Frodo had nothing to do with it.
• Book IV, Chapter 3 - The Black Gate is Closed #3 - What was Frodo thinking? - Blue Wizard
  After the initial shock and despair of seeing the gates of Mordor, Frodo makes up his mind. He's going in. Gollum talks him out of it, thankfully, but Frodo reasons: 1. My task is to take the Ring to Mordor.
  2. I don't know any way into Mordor except this one.
  3. (unstated) I know that I'll probably be captured, tortured, the ring taken from me, and killed, but
  4. Que sera sera. Sam for his part, seems to have no problem with this line of reasoning, and sees the added bonus that, if Gollum won't follow, at least they will be rid of him at last. As for my question, um...how shall I put this.... WHAT!!! ARE YOU NUTS? Or, more seriously... We have talked a great deal about the role of fate in LOTR. Tolkien makes the point here that Frodo's decision is not one of despair. Rather, in the face of overwhelming danger and peril, he trusts that somehow, he will be protected if he chooses to complete his task. It seems to me that that the decision to go forward (as opposed to the only "rational" alternative...giving up and running away) is a critical one. It is a test, one of a series of tests that Frodo faces and must pass, to complete this quest. And, having passed the test, fate indeed intervenes, and provides an alternative to the certain death and failure that would follow from walking up to the gate.
• Faith & courage - Mr Kimi
  Frodo's decision was influenced by some kind of faith that it was the right thing to do, and that it was the right thing to do even if it was going to kill him. This amount of faith is impressive from a Hobbit. Okay, he's met with Gandalf and Elrond and Galadriel but he hasn't (like Gandalf and Galadriel) actually been to the West and seen the Valar themselves. Like us, he could say this is all stories and myths and that what he really ought to do is go back to the Shire & live quietly. But it is more than faith. It is rather awesome courage. Even if I was utterly convinced that the 'right' thing to do was take the ring through the Black Gate, I would be too busy wetting my pants to actually do it. The really amazing thing (and Gandalf is constantly amazed at this) is just how much faith, courage & strength hobbits (esp Frodo) have.
• I guess if I were Frodo.... - Soothfast
  . . . I would have never tried for the Black Gate, but rather took my chances climbing over the Mountains of Shadow somewhere discreet and out of the way. How high were they? Were they utterly insurmountable everywhere, and did much really live at their peaks? An unknown. The alternative would be to strike out for the Great Unknown of going East and approaching Mordor where (I believe) it was known there were no mountains. The only problem with that would be the great distance, but it's less nutty than heading straight for the Black Gate or a dread stronghold such as Cirith Ungol. Only dumb luck and a slew of miracles got the hobbits through the lair of Shelob and out of the clutches of Shagrat and Gorbag. If the hobbits were to attempt entering the Black Gate, they might have tried what they in fact succeeded in doing within Mordor itself: blend in with a marching host of Orcs. Otherwise, yeah: screw it. All is lost.
• Is it just me, or have - Kimi
  Blue's last questions had repeated words around the line breaks? It's just me? Oh, well.
• taking that first step - FX
  This is good literary example of faith. Faith and courage. Every task begins with that first step. You can plan and plan till you're dead but it's that physical act of commitment, of getting after it that makes things happen.
  Never forget, God hates a coward (old Irish expression) Its the Rudy story. Little guy makes the team against all odds. That's us - the everyday Joe. FX sends. Out.
• Quite simply I don't think Frodo had any choice - Narya
  His mission is to take the ring to Mount Doom, and he knows of no other way (until Gollum comes up with a viable alternative) other than to continue. Another way to look at it is to think, what would you have done in Frodo's place? Assume that you don't know what "fate" has in store, and your knowledge of spiritual matters is negligible. You know that, if you turn back, you will fail, and your world will be lost. But you also know that the hopes of so many people lie with you. If you are cowardly and irresponsible, you might abandon the quest. If you are courageous and brave, you would go on, despite the tremendous odds. If you are a frightened little hobbit, you might well despair, irrespective of the influence of a malign ring. Frodo couldn't have lived with himself if he'd turned back. He didn't despair, but he can't have been far from it. In the event, Gollum came to his rescue (and it wouldn't be for the last time).
• I think Frodo's loathe of the ring helped - Temujin
  I've always read Frodo's weariness and misery as being part of a loathe he develops for the ring (and possibly himself for desiring it). He wants the monkey off his back and the only way is forward. I also agree with his sense of responsibility, loyalty, fate, etc. all playing a part in it. Complex motivations are the most interesting :)
• Just a thought. - septembrist
  I get the feeling that Frodo believes, conciously or unconciously, that his death and the destruction of the Ring are intertwined. Again, he may non know if his death is the cause or the effect of the Ring's destruction. If that is the case, then his marching to the gate.
  Idril also has a point about the Ring exerting its power over Frodo increasing his sense of doom or despair.
• If Frodo is being tested, who is doing the testing? - Nenya
  In a purely literary sense, I like the poetic way your logic fits together. It makes Frodo's journey seem like a mystic/religious exercise, in which faith means as much (if not more) as knowledge and ability. If this is a test, though, then it needs to have been set by someone who is seeking to find if Frodo is worthy or not. And that's where the idea of a test breaks down for me. Who is doing the testing? Eru was maintaining a "hands off" policy in Middle Earth at the time, and I'm not sure who else there would have been that was powerful enough to perform such a test. I'm not sure what the ultimate purpose of such a test would be either. Frodo's worthiness had already been tested by Galadriel. And if he'd been found "unworthy" at the Black Gate, what then? Let the entire Middle Earth go to a hideous fate because one Hobbit didn't measure up? If Frodo was to be tested by someone who was purportedly on the good guys' side, then they sure as heck could have picked a better time to check up on his mettle.
• It must be Eru. - Annael
  Or at least, the same will that ensured that the Ring would get to Bilbo and hence to Frodo. I like the idea that Frodo has to commit utterly to the quest before the way opens before him.
• Well, you answered the question yourself, sort of. ;-) - Hmpf
  There is something very archaic, pre-modern, pre-rationalistic to that way of 'reasoning', but it makes sense within the metaphysical frame of Tolkien's world. Fate indeed exists there, and Gandalf stated once (I *think* it was Gandalf) that *some power* was guiding Bilbo's hand when he found and picked up the ring. I think you're right about the situation being a test, although it would be a stupid 'test' in a rational world. It's a test of faith and devotion, I think - faith in whatever power it is that is guiding Frodo (apart from the power of the Ring, of course), and devotion to his task.
• Sense of duty & something else - Idril Celebrindal
  Frodo hadn't really confronted the impossibility of his quest until he sees just how difficult it will be to get into Mordor. His sense of duty is driving him here; I think he feels that he's run out of options and is therefore forced to go to the Black Gate. What's the alternative? Wander around Ithilien and the Brown Lands until their food runs out or they are captured by orcs? He knows of no other way over the mountains. And, as you suggest, maybe he trusts that fate will protect him somehow. Another thing that occurred to me is that perhaps the Ring is at work here. The fastest way for the Ring to return to Sauron is for Frodo to deliver it to the Black Gate. As we've seen numerous times before, the Ring exploits its victims' positive traits as well as their negative ones. Here' it may be working through Frodo's admirable sense of duty and resolve. Frodo began to fall under the influence of the Ring when he used it to compel Gollum, and the Ring is growing more potent as it nears Mordor. It could very well be that it helped him make up his mind to try the Black Gate.
• frodo's decision to attempt the Gate - FX
  Remember this, Frodo has been given the gravest responsibility in Middle Earth by the highest ranking Lords. He feels the pressures of that responsibility. He feels inpired and duty bound to such a task.
  But from a physical sense, he is exhausted, weary, thirsty, worn. Physical exhaustion clouds decision making.
  Morever, he knew from the beginning that his goal was to reach Mordor. And Suaron would like nothing better than to get Frodo and the ring to Mordor. Thus there is a convergence of fate.
  Galadriel in the garden of Lothlorien stated the fate of the company balances upon the blade of a knife. The slightest mischance in either direction would bring disaster.
  From a literary standpoint Frodo's thoughts about trying the Gate add to the building of suspense. From a defense of Frodo's rationale, I would have done the same thing. Who would guess that he'd try the front door. AS to Gollum who'd trust Gollum, anyway? FX sends.
• I think it's the influence of the Ring, too - Aradan
• Definitely - Aiya
  the ring is drawing Frodo to Mordor- and the closer he comes the stronger the ring gets. The ring is not going to allow him to leave when it is so close to getting back to its master. Aside from that- I don't think Frodo is one to leave things undone. He promised to see this quest through- and that's what he is going to do. I've always pictured him as thinking- well- if there's no other way- time to unpack the mountain-climbing gear and head over the Ash Mountains (ered lithum or whatever they are) Even if he has to crawl over the mountains- he's going to Mordor.
• Book IV, Chapter 3 - The Black Gate is Closed #2 - I told you so - Blue Wizard
  After a detailed description of the geographical setting of the entrance to Mordor, the hobbits are initially overcome by despair. Sam is the first to speak, and relates how the Gaffer always kept telling him that he'd come to a bad end. Sam is now perfectly willing to endure his "I told you so", if only he could now be back in the Shire. We got the sense, back in the beginning of FOTR, that Sam's interest "elves and dragons" instead of "potatoes and cabbages" was regarded by the Gaffer, and others, as rather contrary to ordinary hobbitsense, but here, for the first time, we get the sense that the level of disapproval of Sam's interests may have been a bit deeper, and more serious. But, given that we also know that Sam had never traveled further than Woody End in the Shire, how much real trouble could he have ever actually gotten in to merit the Gaffer's disapproval?
• I agree with Patty that a lot of the Gaffer's grumbling - Kimi
  comes from Sam's incessant talking about "Elves and all". He probably worries about what he perceives as a lack of hobbit-sense in his youngest son. But one gets the impression that he's very fond of Sam, for all his supposed complaints.
• I imagine that it wasn't so much what he'd done... - Patty
  as to what he was always talking about...I doubt that Gandalf and Frodo were the only ones to whom Sam had confided his great desire to see elves. I'll bet his dad was very tired of hearing that and similar desires to which it seems he himself was incapable of relating.
• Most Hobbits don't have that seed of Adventure - Idril Celebrindal
  The Gaffer and most other Hobbits simply cannot comprehend why Sam (and Frodo, Bilbo, Merry, and Pippin) yearns for a larger world than the Shire. And what is not understood is generally met with disapproval. Also, Gaffer Gamgee clearly loves Sam ... but like many parents, he can't resist reminding his son of his failings. Or, more to the point, what the Gaffer views as his failings!
• Quick question: - Nenya
  "Gaffer" is a nickname for a grandfather isn't it? I don't have any of the books here, and I honestly never thought to look at the genealogies for this, but I've always assumed that Gaffer was Sam's grandfather rather than his father. Have I been wrong all these years? (Probably have, knowing me.)
• As others have said, "Gaffer" seems to derive - Kimi
  from grandfather, and now has "old man" as one of its meanings. In England (and thence in NZ and Oz), "old man" is sometimes a term for one's father, whatever said father's age might be. I think "Gaffer" may be used in the same way by Sam.
• Gaffer... - Aradan
  ...may originally meant "Grandfather" but it could mean any aged and respected man. It also has the meaning of "Boss" or "Foreman" (which is where the Gaffer in a film crew comes from). But Gaffer Gamgee is definitely Sam's father. He may have got the nickname Gaffer because of the alliteration.
• godfather - Gorel
  I've seen two sources now, one of them being my Webster's, that say gaffer is probably derived from godfather. And in the broadest sense it can simply mean old man. There is a corresponding word "gammer", from godmother, which is a word for an old woman.
• It doesn't seem to take much trouble to earn a conventional Hobbit's disapproval. - Nenya
  Remember that trivial things like going out in a boat were enough to earn the censure of a Shire hobbit. Being seen consorting with Dwarves and Wizards was sufficient to earn social ostracism. Frodo was tainted simply by association with Bilbo and his own parents history. Gaffer was a bit more open minded than the traditional Shire hobbit; he was unwilling to condemn Frodo because of his Bilbo's questionable history. But I suspect that Sam would have earned disapproval for his own boat going, Elf associating, sword carrying ways. "Disapproval" is not to be confused with "disinheritance", by the way. I'm sure that, regardless of what trouble the boy got into, Gaffer would welcome Sam back with open arms (and a stern lecture). After all, you have only read Gaffer's and Rosie's reactions to the returning Sam in "Scouring of the Shire" to see that their tolerance was certainly flexible, especially in the face of the times the Shire was experiencing.
• Yes. Despite all their endearing traits, - Hmpf
  hobbits certainly weren't very open-minded.
• Book IV, Chapter 3 - The Black Gate is Closed - Blue Wizard
  Since AP seems to be a no-show this week, I will take up this Chapter starting this evening. I'd start now, but I don't have the books with me at the office. Otherwise I'd get nothing done at all! But, to get things started, here is one thought: When the three travelers reach the Black Gate, Tolkien tells us that the towers were built after the Last Alliance by the forces of Gondor to keep Sauron, who had fled Mordor to parts unknown, from returning. Contrast this with his description of the Tower of Cirith Ungol, which was also built by them, but to keep the various denizens of Mordor in. I'm not sure that there is a question there. But, here is a map of the journey that we will be covering in this chapter.
• Why the Black Gate is still relevant - Mr Kimi
  In our own history things tend to get better as time goes on, rendering the older things obselete. This is true of fortifications, weapons and (sometimes) computers. In LOTR it is often the other way around because the older things had more of the influence of Numenor and Elves etc. If this were not the case then the Black Gate fortifications built thousands of years before, would no longer be relevant to either side. For example, if it was us we would blow away the walls with our heavy artillery.
• the watch towers - Arathorn
  There always was some evils lurking in Mordor even short after the Last Alliance War. As Minas Morgul wasn't yet evil and was indeed one of the twin cities of Gondor, only some dozens of miles away from evil Mordor, it's logical Cirith Ungol was built on the pass to _protect_ Minas Ithil from any evil, even lesser ones.
  About the Tower of the Teeth at Morannon, I'm not sure Tolkien is explicit if tey were built to keep evil in Mordor, or to keep Sauron to come back. I stll think they stood against Mordor, like Cirith Ungol
  Or they were put to both pruposes: watch those who'd go into Mordor and those who'd go outside.
  For the Wacthers of Cirith Ungol, I always thought they were put there by Sauron or his minions, not by Gondor. ____________________________________
• The windows - Blue Wizard
  in the Towers looked North, and East and West, according to Tolkien. That would seem to me to indicate that they were designed to keep people out of Mordor, rather than keep them in.
• ok - Arathorn
  Then it could be a hint. But I always thought that when Tolkien said the towers were built to keep Gondor from a return of the shadow, he meant a return of Sauron into Mordor.
  Well, they could have slightly modified the windows too.
  But it's possible the Towers were built just after Sauron's fall, when there were troops in Mordor and the area was nearly void of enemies, to keep them from coming back. Then, Tolkien said the troops were afraid of staying there, so they left Mordor quickly without sentry. It's even possible that the Morannon itself was finally abandoned by its troops due to the inherent fear of being so close to the ancient evil - without any important evil being there... ____________________________________
• Gondor should have kept its guard up - Soothfast
  A Black Gate isn't going to do much good if it's not guarded, no matter how high it is. Otherwise one could always find a way to climb over it. At any rate Mordor is a vast realm, and corking up one corner of it is not going to realistically keep Sauron and the Forces of Evil from getting back in. Since Sauron's spirit did indeed flee Mordor for "parts unknown", it could have been that he fled off to the east where there are no mountains sealing off the Black Land from the rest of Middle-earth. Sauron tended to fare better in the East where not as many "fair folk" hung around, so I can't even understand why we went off to Mirkwood which is still in close proximity to Elves and other do-gooders. I would have to say it was only because he still wanted to be in a position to create mischief for the Dunedain and Gondorians (Gondolas?) Also I would theorize that he reckoned he'd have a better chance of recovering his One Ring if he hung out somewhere in the general vicinity where those who took his Ring would likely hung out. I had a point here, somewheres. Ah yes, gates. Well, Cirith Ungol may have been built to keep the Minions of Evil in Mordor, but what about the Watchers? They were magical in a way, and served the purposes of the evil Orcs who dwelt within. Seems like it was all turned around against the Gondorians. What I'd like to know is what Frodo and Sam were thinking when they decided to head to the Black Gate. Did they really expect it to be open? No. They wasted their time, and might have done better to head out straightway toward the east and approach Mordor where, again, there were no mountains.
• look in Appendix b (Return of the King page 367 ) - Ron Austin
  year 1636 The great plague devastates Gondor.
  year 1640 Morder is left unguarded. Sauron being immortal can afford to take the long view in his planning.
• Catch you this evening then, Blue , and thanks for the map link! - Patty
• I'll make a comment. - Steve D
  I'm looking forward this week's discussion, Blue. Doesn't the tower to keep people in remind you of the Soviet Union? As Saruman and his orcs reminded some people of the Nazi's?
• No. In fact, I am utterly baffled by that thought - Blue Wizard
  Each of the fortresses on the edge of Mordor that Tolkien describes - the Towers of the Teeth, Minas Morgul and the Tower of Cirith Ungol - were built, not by Sauron, but by Gondor. So the analogy just breaks down completely. It would make a great deal more sense to think of fortifications originally built by one power to oppose another, which were later abandoned and then used against the original builders. Frankly, I can't think of a good example that would provide any kind of reasonable parallel, although there is undoubtedly some student of European military history who can remedy that deficiency in my store of knowledge. They cannot be, intentionally or unintentionally, references to the Cold War Era Soviet Union. The most famous emblem of the Cold War - The Berlin Wall - wasn't built until 1961, well after Tolkien had completed these books.
• Fortification examples - Mr Kimi
  A nice easy one is Chateau Gillard or 'Saucy Castle' built by Richard I on the edge of his territory and thumbing his nose at the French. It was a well designed castle but it did fall to the French long after Richard's time, and then the French used it. I'm not sure it was very important after it fell, but if the English had been invading it certainly would have been. Easier examples that come to mind are fortified cities like Antioch and Jerusalem which were taken by one side and then the other, each time the same walls were there (probably repaired a little) but the protagonists found themselves on the opposite side of the walls to what they were on the previous time.
• Gillard s/be Gaillard - Kimi

Inferno
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• Book IV, Chapter 4: Summary - septembrist
  Frodo, Sam, and Gollum leave the desolation of the Marshes and the approaches to Mordor and are refreshed b the herbs, flowers, and woods of Ithilien. His spirits up, Sam is determined on some hot food. Gollum supplies him with some rabbits and he sets to making a stew. Some from the remnants of the fire are soon discovered by rangers of Ithilien and Sam and Frodo come under the custody of a captain named Faramir who reminds them of Boromir. After their first look at battle between men and an oliphaunt, the hobbits await the return of Captain Faramir. Post of the week goes to Frodo Hoy in showing how Faramir's leadership style is contrasted with Boromir's and Denethor's. Faramir is the hands on leader who commands respect and devotion from his men.
  Thanks all for your insight and thoughts. See you next week for one of my favorite chapters.

• Nice job, Septembrist! Thanks for leading. - Frodo Hoy
• Septembrist...I told Truffo we'd roast him alive, but for you.... - Patty
  if, after doing such a fantastic job with this chapter you beg mercy for his life Gorel and I will think about letting him live. Thanks for stepping in here and leading an interesting discussion.

• Spare him.:) He is a wretched gangrel creature... - septembrist
  ..but he is under my care for a while.

• Nice masster! - Trufflehunter
• Thanks for leading one of my favorite chapters. - Greyhame
• Need brooks no delay, yet late is better than never! - Trufflehunter
  My Dear Dwellers in the Reading Room, humblest apologies!
  It seems my tardiness knows no bounds! To Septembrist, esteemed substitute, multas gratias tibi ago! Your valiant efforts are much appreciated, and, having just quickly read through last week's discussion, you have done an admirable job! One of my very favorite chapters, too. Oh well, here, at least, is a picture: (from the Folio Society edition of The Two Towers (drawn by the Queen of Denmark, no less!) Truffo the Unreliable :(
• For my part, I forgive you and accept your thanks. - septembrist
• I think that for this guffaw you should.. - Patty
  draw a picture of your own and get it scanned in. Or at least a parody...you must be forced to perform for forgiveness!!!!
• You don't REALLY want me to draw a picture MYSELF, do you? - Trufflehunter
  Because that would be punishment for YOU! :) As you can see... Truffo The Surrealist

• Do badgers have hands and hats? - Draupne
  The beard is kind of cute though...

• Don't you recognise Gandalf when you see him? ;) - Trufflehunter

• How can I? - Draupne
  I've never met the guy ;-)
• Thanks, Sept. Good work! - Kimi
• Thanks for leading the discussion, septembrist! Nice work! - Idril Celebrindal
• Book IV, Chapter 4: Im Westen Nichts Neues. - septembrist
  Carrying on Idril's observations re Tolkien and WWI, I noticed a similarity between Sam's encounter with the dead Southron and Paul Baumer's encounter with the French soldier in "All Quiet on the Western Front". Could Remarque have influenced this brief interlude showing the waste of war?
• It certainly is similar! - Idril Celebrindal
  I think that Tolkien included this scene out of a desire to illustrate the sadness and futility of war. A secondary purpose is to show that Sam has not been desensitized by his experiences and can make the empathic leap to sympathize with people who are supposed to be his enemies. Absent any evidence that Tolkien read All Quiet on the Western Front or saw the 1930 movie version of it, Frodo Hoy's theory that it may be based on his WWI experiences seems plausible to me.
• I'll hazard a guess that Tolkien draws from his own experience here. - Frodo Hoy
• Book IV, Chapter 4: Sleeping Sam - septembrist
  I thought it unusual that Sam would find it so easy to sleep after being discovered by Faramir's men. Sam is usually the wary one and the worrier. Is his exhaustion overcoming him or does he feel safer now that Gollum is gone? He certainly seems comfortable in talking with Damrod and Mablung.
• It speaks to his fatigue, and to his trust in these men. - Frodo Hoy
  Sam has been wary, very wary, for many days now. Just think, it's been only Frodo, Sam, and Gollum together for many days in enemy territory. Sam has not rested easy while Gollum has been about (can you blame him?). Now, for the moment, Gollum is gone and not apt to return while the men of Gondor remain. Sam senses that the men of Gondor are trustworthy. Sam is exhausted and, I think, relieved that someone else can watch out for "Stinker". Why not sleep? It's very natural and really is a physical necessity. Besides, they have been travelling at night and sleeping by day. It's his bedtime. :-)
• Book IV, Chapter 4: Invoking the Valar. - septembrist
  When the oliphaunt or mumak comes, Damrod cries, "May the Valar turn him aside!"
  Is this not the only time that any man directly invokes the Valar for aid throughout LOTR? That is what my memory is telling me. It could be wrong of course. If it is right, does this mean the men of Ithilien are more "religious" or more openly aware of the Valar and their possible actions in ME?
• The psychology of religion in Tolkiens world - Ron Austin
  Consider if you will that in Tolkiens World you actually have true immortals in the actual presence of the Istari, Elves, and Mair. These immortals are tangible and don't have to be taken on faith as in our world.
  What effect does this have on the psychological make-up of the Mortal races.
  Could this be the reason that the Elves do not associate very much with Mortals?
  How much in common would an Elf have with the Mortal?
• It's consistent with the history of Gondor - Idril Celebrindal
  Gondor was founded by Elendil's group of "Faithful," the Numenorians who still trusted the Valar despite persecution by the King's men (who were dominated by Sauron). The Faithful were saved from the destruction of Numenor by the intervention of the Valar, who caused a storm that blew their ships to the shores of Middle-earth when Numenor was overwhelmed by the sea. It is not surprising that their descendants (and the descendents of their subjects) would invoke the Valar in times of fear or need. Someone today might say, "May God save us!" in a similar situation. The Gondorians in general seem to be much more aware of the Valar than most other peoples of Middle-earth, with the exception of the Elves (who are always calling upon Elbereth). For instance, Faramir and his men observe a moment of silence at dinner to honor the memory of Numenor, of Elvenhome, and of what is beyond. And doesn't Aragorn invoke the Valar at his coronation? IIRC, he prays that the kingdom of Gondor will last as long as the thrones of the Valar endure. (Or something along those lines -- I don't have the books with me at the moment and can't look up the exact quotation!)
• Aragorn's coronation. - septembrist
  I believe it is Gandalf who mentions the thrones of the Valar.
  I agree with your summary but it still seems odd that such things are not heard more often, especially during the fighting at Minas Tirith. Again, I think this invocation is the only one aside from Gandalf's at the coronation.
• I've noticed this before - Steve D
  Even in C.S. Lewis's Narnia books, which are explicitly Christian, people almost never pray.
• Thanks IC - Steve D
  I stand corrected. There is more prayer in LOTR than I thought. But still much less than in real life.
• great observtion - Steve D
  I never noticed that. That's probably the only prayer in Tolkien's stories, even though, as a devout Catholic, one would think he himself prayed every day.
• Book IV, Chapter 4: Chance companion. - septembrist
  When questioned about Gollum, Frodo describes him as a chance companion under his care - to me, a strange choice of words since chance did not really play a part. Was this Frodo's attempt to distance himself from the suspicious Gollum if Gollum does something stupid? Or was he afraid that Gollum's story might jeopardize the secrecy of his mission? Or is he simply trying to protect Gollum from skeptical strangers?
• It was not lie. He was truly a chance companion. - Nenya
  Frodo simply did not elaborate on the chance involved. In as much as the One Ring would have accepted the first convenient ride out of the Gladden River, it was chance that had Déagol find the Ring, leading in turn to Sméagol's taking possession of the Ring. It was chance that allowed Bilbo to find the Ring, and chance that made Frodo Bilbo's nephew and heir to the Ring. So it was chance that led Frodo and Gollum to become travelling companions, even though Gollum did not find Frodo by chance. Sometimes the truth can be bent just short of breaking to serve a higher purpose.
• "If chance you call it" - Kimi
  I suppose Frodo's not likely to tell Faramir that Gollum's his companion due to divine intervention.
• Hey! I'm not calling Frodo a liar! Just stirring the mental juices.:) - septembrist
• Woops, should've put a smiley on my last one - Kimi
  :-) :-) :-) Sorry, Sept, didn't at all mean that to sound scratchy. I just couldn't resist the "If chance you call it," which someone always seems to say.
• No worries. Actually, I meant to put my post under Nenya's post.:} - septembrist
• Should Frodo say, - Frodo Hoy
  "He was tracking me down because I carry Sauron's One Ring, and the unfortunate creature is drawn to it?"
  It is as good a brief explanation as he can give without revealing too much. It is also true, in its own way, to say that Gollum is a chance companion. He certainly wasn't designed to be accompanying the Ring by the people that put the Fellowship together. Frodo and Sam only had him stay with them as they made a decision on the spot after their "chance" encounter at the bottom of the cliffs of the Emyn Muil. It is a guarded statement that does not reveal the full truth. But to reveal the full truth would be unwise and unfaithful in regard to their appointed task.
• Ditto. - Greyhame
  Although it always surprised me that Frodo would say something so cryptically wise.
  His transformation at this point of the story takes on significance of its own. He starts to sound more and more like Gandalf through the end until we have a mini Gandalf in Scouring along with a mini Eomer (Merry), a mini Faramir (Pippin). and a mini Aragorn (Samwise). I'll substantiate those assertions on a later post. Gotta run... Famililial duty calls.
• Very well put, Frodo Hoy - Kimi
  As was your namesake's statement :-)
• Yes, an excellent choice of words...showing.. - Patty
  how wise Frodo has become. Saying just enough to encourage Faramir to spare the creature's life but not revealing too much.
• I agree. - Annael
  Later on, when Faramir knows about the Ring, Frodo does tell him who Gollum really is.
• me too - Steve D
  And isn't it dramatic when Sam mentions the Ring and he and Frodo draw their swords thinking to defend it from Faramir.
• Book IV, Chapter 4: Leadership question. - septembrist
  Faramir leads the scouts who investigate the smoke they saw from Sam's fire. It seems unusual that he would take time out to do this with an impending battle with the Haradrim. It seems to me he should have sent a subaltern to do the job while he concentrated on the impending engagement. I think it would also have made more literary impact if Faramir had made his appearance in the next chapter.
  Any thoughts?
• I think Faramir's presence is logical. - Frodo Hoy
  There is an ambush planned by the men of Gondor. They spy a strange creature nearby. They investigate, with all their plans relying on stealth, secrecy, and surprise. No matter what the scouts discovered, Faramir would need firsthand knowledge to make a decision. Time is of the essence, as the battle is near. It makes perfect sense for him to accompany the others to discover the doings of the strange creature. If the creature was an orc-spy, it would be essential to determine if it had seen the Gondorians or made a report to the enemy. Faramir, as Captain of the band, would need to be convinced in his heart that the men were not going into a trap. As the one responsible for his men, he would want to make an assessment for himself of the risks and conditions. It's consistent with Faramir's character to be there, anyway. Mablung, in talking about the men of Harad, reveals something about Faramir when he says, "The road may pass, but they shall not! Not while Faramir is Captain. He leads now in all perilous ventures. But his life is charmed, or fate spares him for some other end." Faramir is a hands on, I'm-with-you-all-the-way kind of leader. It is very natural to find him with his men in this scouting excursion and not back at a base camp, awaiting a secondhand report. I also agree with Greyhame that this is an intentional contrast to the haughtiness of Boromir, for Frodo's benefit within the story and for our benefit as readers/observers of the story. Tolkien draws a clear distinction between the person of Boromir and Faramir - though they are brothers, yet they are different in character. It is much better to meet Faramir in this way than by seeing him as a prime mover of men's fates by remaining behind to command through others. This is also meant to foreshadow a distinction between Faramir and his father Denethor, who is such a person to remain behind while others do his bidding.
• Yeah, What he said. - Annael
  Actually both brothers strike me as the kind of leader who's right in the trenches with their men. Boromir was right up there making a path through the snow & carrying the boats on the portage. But Faramir doesn't have the same sense of self-importance Boromir has. I think Boromir probably thought "I've got to show them how to do it right" while Faramir simply felt it was his duty to be there.
• I disagree. - Greyhame
  I think Faramir's being with the three scouts exemplifies his bond to his soldiers without demeaning his leadership qualities. Furthermore, I imagine scouts had already observed the strange trio, brought back word that the intruders were not orcs or Haradim scouts and Faramir having good foresight decided to micromanage before the big battle. The guard or rangers of Ithilien seem to see so much action that the Haradim ambush is a cakewalk for them.
  Plus, After the dead marshes and the dreary journey, Faramir strikes an immediate impression. He has that Aragorn-like quality where he grows on you. The last member of the fellowship Frodo saw upon departure was foolhardy Boromir and the instant physical likeness of Faramir (and difference of temperament) strikes me as having greater literary impact than revealing Faramir in Henneth Annun like a lord in his castle. His accessibility sets him apart from Denethor and brings him in similarity with the Dunedain.
• Point of fact. - Frodo Hoy
  The men of Gondor did not know about Frodo and Sam before coming upon them while searching for Gollum. "'We have not found what we sought,' said one. 'But what have we found?'"
  However, I am still in agreement with you, Greyhame, about Faramir's presence being proper. Your point about contrast with Boromir and Denethor is square on the mark.
• Point of fact is correct.:) - septembrist
• One could easily argue... - septembrist
  ..that Faramir completely trusted his men to conduct the battle with the Haradrim and felt comfortable investigating the smoke. However, I get the impression that the battle wasn't quite as easy as they expected given the appearance of the oliphaunt.
  Also, the men were taken completely by suprise when they encountered the hobbits.
  I think it would have been better for Faramir to appear after the battle to see these strange travellers instead of popping up for a few minutes and disappearing.
• You're right! - GaladrielTX
  When I read it this time, these four guys show up, and a few paragraphs later, Faramir is identified as one of them. It's been awhile since I've read The Two Towers so I actually did a double-take since I hadn't remembered that he was one of the scouts. It does seem unlikely.
• Faramir should have stayed in the base camp - FX
  Agreed. Faramir pulled a "Captain Kirk" move with the away party.
• LOL! Kirk wanted to have all the fun! - septembrist
• good point, maybe Tolkien just didn't think of it. - Steve D
• Blasphemy!! - Narya
  Probably true, though. :-)
• No story is perfect - Soothfast
  It's a matter of taste, I suppose. Faramir now, or Faramir later. He has to get into the act at some time.
• Book IV, Chapter 4: Dream of peace. - septembrist
  Frodo is enjoying peaceful sleep at one point waking from a "gentle, unrecoverable dream of peace". Is he tapping into his inner peace or is such piece coming from the fairer land of Ithilien or perhaps other higher powers?
• Partly, perhaps, the healing powers - Kimi
  of Ithilien, which may be reminding Frodo of the Shire. But he had a similarly soothing dream in the Desolation of Mordor, where the surroundings were hideous. I think these dreams may be sent to him as a source of strength and comfort; perhaps by the Valar, perhaps by Gandalf or even Galadriel. In the case of the latter two, not as a "Oh, here's Frodo, I see him in my mirror (Galadriel)/extra-sensory vision (Gandalf)"; more as an effect of prayers on Frodo's behalf.
• Possibly it has to do with basic hobbit natures... - Patty
  they are by nature very innocent and earth-bound, perhaps he was just enjoying what would be for him a natural sleep.
• Hobbit resilience - Idril Celebrindal
  Perhaps this dream is Frodo's Hobbit nature coming out to sustain him in dark times.
• ANd sleep is his only release from his dreadful burden - Narya
• Book IV, Chapter 4: Light from within. - septembrist
  Since we had not heard from Trufflehunter last week, I will go ahead with leading discussion for this chapter if all are agreeable. Sam notices that Frodo has a light that "seemed to be shining faintly within; but now the light was even clearer and stronger". Is the Ring working its "magic" and increasing Frodo's lifespan or is it some other power or force. I know this has been discussed earlier but it is still interesting now that they are no longer in Rivendell.
• I agree that Sam has become more perceptive, - Kimi
  though I think the luminous quality in Frodo has increased. As for what the luminous quality is: I'm tempted to call it holiness. Light is always portrayed as good in LOTR, so I don't think the light comes from the Ring.
• And I guess you couldn't really call it... - Patty
  light from a self-sacrificing nature due to taking on this burden and taking it to destroy because, due to the hold the ring takes on mortals he really couldn't do anything else. And does this lessen the impact of Frodo's agreeing to take the ring back in Rivendell? You could argue that it wasn't a sacrifice if you used that logic, although he did say he was taking it to destroy it....????
• Sam has become more perceptive - Idril Celebrindal
  In Rivendell, Gandalf noticed that Frodo is like a clear glass filled with light for eyes to see that can. Sam has grown much on this journey and is no longer the simple Shire-Hobbit of the first book. His experiences on the trip, his exposure to the supernatural, his proximity to the Ring, and his interactions with the Elves (not to mention his long acquaintance with Frodo) have enabled him to percieve this luminous quality in Frodo.
• Yes, I agree, too. The ring has, of course,.. - Patty
  affected him and made him as he now is, and Sam is more perceptive. But I wonder if this "light from within" would be perceptable in Bilbo at this time, were Sam back in Rivendell to see him. He didn't notice anything when he was back there, perhaps he hadn't grown enough yet.
• I agree. - Steve D

Inferno
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Apr262009,4:05am

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• Book IV, Chapter 5: Summary - septembrist
  Faramir closely questions Frodo and is reason for being in Ithilien and his intentions. In a tense scene of wits Frodo tries to conceal his true mission without causing more suspicion.
  However, Faramir guesses more than he is told and escorts Sam and Frodo to the secret hiding place of Henneth Annun.
  After further discussion, Faramir learns from a careless Sam that Frodo is carrying the One Ring. Unlike his brother Boromir, Faramir is not tempted by the powers of the Ring. When Frodo wearily tells his true destination, Faramir is astounded and puts off any decision about his actions until the next day.
  Frodo and Sam sleep in relative peace and comfort under Faramir's protection. This chapter really shows Frodo's masterful display of wit and wisdom when confronted by Faramir's pointed questions.
  Only after more than a few readings did I realize how crucial this encounter was. If Frodo had faltered in any way, he could have revealed his possession of the Ring to all of Faramir's company or may very well have found his way to Minas Tirith. Thanks to all of you who have participated in the discussion. I hope I provided some tidbits for thought.

• Good job! - Idril Celebrindal
  I enjoyed your thought-provoking questions!
• Thanks, Septembrist! And you are correct, - Frodo Hoy
  Frodo rules! :-)
• Very nice work, Septembrist. Thanks. - Kimi
• I've just caught up to the discussion, septembrist, ... - Patty
  which has been happening a lot lately with me. I enjoyed going back and reading the chapter discussions on both this and the last chapter. Thank you for your "tidbits" and your summary--I agree, this is a pivitol time in the quest when many other turns might have been taken, to the detriment of the whole purpose. Great job!
• Book IV, Chapter 5: Frodo's zenith. - septembrist
  This is more observation than question. It occurred to me last night that this chapter really shows Frodo at the height of his mental and perceptive powers. After this chapter Sam becomes more of the leader. No doubt this is because of the proximity to Mordor and Sauron. Perhaps this is why this is one of my favorite chapters - because it shows Frodo show well, especially in matching wits with Faramir.
• Very perceptive! - Idril Celebrindal
  I never thought of Frodo's interactions with Faramir in quite this way, but you're right. After he leaves Faramir in Ithilien, Frodo undergoes a series of harrowing experiences: he barely evades the Witch King's grasp outside Minas Morgul, he's attacked by a giant spider, he's captured and interrogated by Orcs, and he loses the Ring and believes it has been seized by Sauron. He has no chance to rest and recover his strength afterwards, but must continue his physically exhausting and spiritually debilitating trek to Orodruin. Most of his waning strength goes to resist the increasing power of the Ring. Moreover, the Ring starts getting the upper hand once Frodo passes over the mountains to Mordor. It is no wonder that Sam takes on more and more of the leadership of the Quest once they reach the borders of Mordor. Frodo simply can't do it any more.

• Idril! Interesting WWI slang. - septembrist
  I just found a site that has WWI slang. It states the to "go west" meant to die. Interesting, is it not?

• ominous west - Arathorn
  In Ancient Egypt, the dead were ssailing west to the realm of the death. I assume it is obviously linked to the sun that sinks in the west and rises to the east. (which is why in antiquity many dead were buried face to the east, that is to the resurrection ).
  For WW1, I don't know if it still was the old influence, or if it was a reference to the west front where people were buthcered by hundreds of thousands (Somme, Verdun, etc...)?? ____________________________________

• That's true in classical mythology, as well... - GaladrielTX
  if I remember my old college course rightly. The hero would travel to the west to overcome death, then return to the land of the living.

• Yes- the underworld - Aiya
  was usually set in the west of 'civilized' (European) lands. In some stories the entrance was around Gibraltar I believe.
• It does? - Draupne
  If I say that something "has gone straight west" in Norwegian, it means it failed totally. I always thought it came from something geographical, straight west would be straight out into the Northsea.
• Oh, yes ... - Idril Celebrindal
  I've heard the expression, of course, but hadn't previously associated it with Tolkien. It does have great LOTR resonance, especially given the fate of the High Elves, Bilbo and Frodo. Thanks for pointing that out!
• (Oh no! An 'I agree!' post!) - I agree! ;-) - Hmpf
• (Oh No! Another one!) I agree too ;-) - Draupne
• Interesting! - Annael
  Hadn't thought of that before, but you're right. In every other encounter with a leader of something, Frodo has taken a back seat and let Gandalf or Aragorn deal with it. Here there is no one else, and Frodo speaks to Faramir as an equal. Although Faramir does not return the favor until he understands Frodo's quest in full. I think we also see the healing power of Ithilien at work. You're right, after this Frodo is in Mordor, and is so preoccupied with simply enduring his burden that Sam must take over as leader.
• Book IV, Chapter 5: Boromir's funeral boat - septembrist
  Faramir describes a pale light that surrounds the boat. Obvious questions, where is this light coming from and how did the boat survive the falls? Elvish "magic" from the boat? Divine sign of redemption?
• I immediately thought of the glow of - Frodo Hoy
  the Elvish blades and associated the glow of the boat with the virtue of the Elves. There is an immediate problem with that, of course. What prompted the glow when it wasn't evident before as the travellers made their way down Anduin? My answer: I don't know. So perhaps it is a sign from the Valar, or Iluvatar himself, of the blessedness in death of the person of Boromir. But I think it more likely that the Elven boat's virtue was somehow activated by the journey through Rauros and down Anduin. A normal boat would have sunk. In staying afloat, the Elvish "magic" somehow shone visibly to Faramir's eyes.
• Oh, I don't know - it could well be... - Hmpf
  a sign of some kind of divine blessing or something, I think. The whole situation that Faramir describes has something very surreal about it, anyway, so it might be that Faramir's actually had some kind of vision - even if the boat was really there, he might have seen 'more than there really was to see' - maybe because he was Boromir's brother.
• Book IV, Chapter 5: Heir of Elendil. - septembrist
  Faramir is curiously silent about Aragorn and his claim to the throne. He asks no questions about Aragorn or his claim. Does he not believe Frodo's claim or is he simply waiting for Aragorn's claim to be recognized back home?
• At this time Farimar is not the Steward yet - Ron Austin
• Also Farimar would not speculate about the Kingship ... - Ron Austin
  In a military operation in front of his troops (his Troops would have to have a clear chain of command ). Farimar would have to consult with his father before officially accepting any claims to the Throne.
• I think Faramir might see a claim to the throne as - Kimi
  almost irrelevant at the moment, given the danger he sees Gondor as being in. He perhaps thinks it'll be time to talk about such a claim if Gondor survives at all.
• Inspirational - Ufthak
  It's always possible that Faramir thinks that even if Aragorn is not the true King, other people believe he is, he has an impressive-looking sword which cuts Orcish backside, and it may raise moral. Who would people follow more readily - their rightful king (they believe) or an old steward they don't see much.
  Just conjecture. He's probably to elitist to think abot things in this way.
• could be - Steve D
  That would be a smart thing for him to do, I think Eomer had some of this kind thinking. But in Faramir's case I think his love for truth and rightousness is more important than politics. Oh, and welcome Ufthak.
• I never questioned... - Steve D
  that Faramir naturally accepted Aragorn as King. It just seems like part of the goodness of his character. I never thought about the question of proof. Good question. Anyway, how does Aragorn prove his ancestory to anyone? He seems to just say who he is and people accept it.
• Its his elven blood - Adaneth
  that convinces people. Even in Bree, when he looked at someone, they had to look away. I don't think that he had trouble convincing people of things if he chose to. Boromir was the only exception, and his doubt was short-lived, I think, though he didn't want to admit it.
  Adaneth
• Re proof: Aragorn has a huge advantage here - Kimi
  There are people walking the earth who knew Elendil. Most notably Elrond, whose brother founded the Numenorean dynasty and became Aragorn's oh-so-distant ancestor. Boromir is told of Aragorn's ancestry in the House of Elrond; Faramir is told of it in that context.
• And it's not like... - GaladrielTX
  he's just relying on his birthright to claim the throne. He becomes a true leader in the impending battles against Sauron's armies. That, of course, makes him more acceptable.
• good point, Kimi - Steve D
• Maybe he doesn't believe it - Selby
  Because it has been so long since there was a king and all he has to go on is the word of a hobbit that he has only just met.
• A bit of both, I think - Idril Celebrindal
  Faramir is a cautious man, unlike his more impetuous brother. He may be waiting until Aragorn can prove his claim in person.
• Book IV, Chapter 5: High and Middle Men - septembrist
  Faramir describes classification of men to Frodo and Sam. He states that the men of Gondor can "scarce claim any longer the title High" and that they are more like the Rohirrim - the Middle peoples. Does Faramir think that Gondor culture will continue to stagnate (or decline)?
• Faramir is not optimistic about Gondor's future - Idril Celebrindal
  He believes that its culture is in decline and that the influence of its Numenorean founders is waning. He also doubts the ability of the West to resist Sauron, although he himself will fight to the last to save it. Finally, he has no foreknowledge of the renaissance that Aragorn's assumption of the kingship will bring. This bit about the "high" and "middle" men always struck me as rather elitist. It fits in with Faramir's background as a member of the Numenorean-descended nobility of Gondor (one who considers himself a "high" man), but it's kind of jarring to modern sensibilities.
• To me, his remarks echo Galadriel's - Kimi
  statement that she and Celeborn "fight the long defeat". He's doing his duty, with no real hope of success. The theme of High and Middle Men, and the inherent value of blood lines (the blood of Numenor runs true in Faramir; we're obviously meant to read that as Faramir's being superior to most of the men around him because of his hereditary superiority) makes me wince a little, too. I think most of us live in societies where prestige is something that, it's felt, should be earned by one's actions, not a birthright. Which is not to say that men like Faramir and Aragorn don't earn their prestige; of course they do. But the whole notion of an hereditary monarchy requires the belief that someone is fit to rule; is in fact the best person to rule; purely due to an accident of birth.
• Faramir and Eowyn - Steve D
  This is interesting when we get their relationship. Faramir says something like, "A lady fair, more beautiful than even the words of the Elven tounge can tell."

  Could he, by loving Eowyn, be turning his back on the elven world and joining the human?

• Elitism. - septembrist
  Yes, the elitism is rather jarring and makes one wonder whether the common people of Gondor shared this feeling, especially regarding the Rohirrim.
• Book IV, Chapter 5: Faramir/Eomer parallel - septembrist
  Both Faramir and Eomer must decide whether to slay the strangers in their land, take them to their lords, or choose another course. Both choose another way and face the displeasure of their lords. I have two questions.
  Was it usual for kings to give such orders? It seems cumbersome and suggests a lack of trust of their lieutenants.
  Is this similarity deliberate to show the similar natures of Faramir and Eomer or was this a coincidence resulting from the story forming in Tolkien's noggin?
• Similarities and differences - Kimi
  Eomer and Faramir have in common a sound ability to judge characters, and the courage to do what they feel to be right even when that means breaking the rules. Both of them also refer to Gandalf as someone they admire, in both cases an opinion that their father [figure] does not share. But Faramir comes across as a far more sophisticated character than Eomer, and certainly far more learned in old lore. Both are brave and skilled soldiers; Faramir is also a scholar. I have a feeling that Eomer might not have let Frodo and Sam go had he been in Faramir's position. Eomer seemed awed by Aragorn as the heir of Elendil. Maybe it was a deliberate action of Tolkien's to contrast a true Numenorean like Faramir with a "lesser" man, or maybe it was just a coincidence that served the plot. I suspect the latter, but really haven't a strong opinion on that. Whether or not it was normal for Kings (or Stewards) to give such orders, I don't know. For a country as beleaguered as Gondor, possibly. But both Theoden and Denethor are subject to damaging influences: Theoden has been fed the lies of Saruman by Grima, and Denethor has been shown what Sauron wishes him to see, and is edging ever closer to despair. So I suppose it's believable that neither ruler is fully reasonable in their orders.
• Good point about fathers being influenced by Sauron and Saruman. - septembrist
• Differences... - Trufflehunter
  If Eomer is a 'pleasant young man', Faramir is a 'grave young man'. His rejection of mere militarism, his recognition that there are other qualities than those of a warrior or a general, backs up his claim that Gondor is a more reflective society, and one with a longer history, than the Riddermark. The claim is also tacitly demonstrated by Faramir's capacity for subtlety, understatement, a reverence for truth which nevertheless includes a relatively oblique approach to it, well beyond Eomer's blunt aggressions and withdrawals. Eomer has a certain 'panache'. Faramir has something more valuable--a kind of prudence or restraint and keeps his cards much closer to his chest than does Eomer, concealing the fact that he has seen the body of his brother until Frodo mentions him several times, and jumps to the right conclusion over Frodo's relationship with Boromir, rather than the wrong conclusion.
• individual responsibility - Steve D
  You might be right. This also shows Tolkien's theme that a person has to chose goodness by himself not just following the orders of another.
• Book IV, Chapter 5: What did they know and when did they know it? - septembrist
  Faramir discusses Isildur's bane lore in Gondor and he himself seems to know or guess a great deal about it. Was he unique or did his father and other high officials have the same interest or knowledge?
  I am surprised that it at least Faramir did not know it was the Ring. Perhaps, like others, they assumed it was lost forever.
• Denethor alone - Steve D
  I think that only Denethor would know about the Ring since he studied the old books. Of course everyone would be interested in "Isildur's Bane" because of the poem.
• Book IV, Chapter 5: Inquisition - septembrist
  The crucial point of this chapter and of this book, I believe, is Faramir's examination of Frodo and Frodo's responses.
  It gives us an idea of Denethor's questioning of Pippin and how both Denethor and Faramir are able to deduce accurate conclusions from the skillful answers provided by the hobbits.
  It also shows Frodo's mental agility and wit in trying to answer the questions without arousing further suspicion and without revealing his true mission.
  Frodo best sums up his account when he says, "I told no lies, and of the truth all I could". Any favorite lines from this encounter?
  Also, why does Faramir spend so much time with Frodo? Is it so easy to believe that Frodo and Sam could be working for the enemy given Faramir's power of insight and intuition?
• I don't really think he thinks they might be... - Hmpf
  working for the enemy, but he feels that *something* important is going on. People don't just go for a hike in Ithilien at that time, so it's a safe bet that Frodo and Sam have some 'hidden motive' - and since it's Faramir's responsibility to know what's going on in Ithilien, he intends to find out. No matter what it is, it might have some influence on things in Ithilien (and on the whole war, of course). Very reasonable, IMO.
• I like Faramir's statement that - Kimi
  "I would not snare even an orc with a falsehood". I love the picture of Sam: "He planted himself squarely in front of Faramir, his hands on his hips, and a look on his face as if he was addressing a young hobbit who had offered him what he called 'sauce' when questioned about visits to the orchard. There was some murmuring, but also some grins on the faces of the men looking on: the sight of their Captain sitting on the ground and eye to eye with a young hobbit, legs well apart, bristling with wrath, was one beyond their experience." One of my favourite pieces in the whole of LOTR comes later in this chapter; Sam again, talking of Galadriel: "'Beautiful she is sir! Lovely! some times like a great tree in flower, sometimes like a white daffadowndilly, small and slender like. Hard as di'monds, soft as moonlight. Warm as sunlight, cold as frost in the stars. Proud and far-off as a snow-mountain and as merry as any lass I ever saw with daisies in her hair in the springtime. But that's a lot of nonsense and all wide of my mark.' 'Then she must be lovely indeed,' said Faramir. 'Perilously fair.' 'I don't know about perilous,' said Sam. 'It strikes me that folk takes their peril with them into Lorien, and finds it there because they've brought it in. But perhaps you could call her perilous, because she's so strong in herself. You, you could dash yourself to pieces on her, like a ship on a rock; or drownd yourself, like a hobbit in a river. But neither rock nor river would be to blame.'" I love the juxtaposition of this truly beautiful and insightful description of Galadriel, full of lovely images, with the more-expected Sam-ness of "drownd like a hobbit in a river." To me it illustrates one of the reasons Tolkien used Hobbits as his heroes. I doubt if Faramir thinks these two are working for the Enemy. But they are something strange and anomalous, and Faramir is working in enemy territory, and can take nothing for granted. These two could, at first sight, be spies, even unwitting ones. He has to be very sure of his impressions before he can risk disobeying his orders.
• <enters, wearing a red long kind of robe and a red weird hat> - Arathorn

Inferno
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Apr262009,4:06am

Post #33 of 65(29530 views)
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• Book IV Chapter 6: The Forbidden Pool: Let me 'splain... No, that would take to long. Let me sum up. - Inferno
  Bonus points for picking out the reference in the title. ;) Anyway. Very little in the way of 'action' occurs in this chapter. Gollum follows Frodo & Sam to Henneth Annun, is captured, tried, and placed in Frodo's care. Everything else in this chapter is exposition, whether by the author himself, or by the various characters. Tolkien again demonstrates his great capacity for descriptive language in the images of the waterfall, the moonset over Gondor, and a few other passages. Faramir reveals bits and peices of the history of Numenor and Gondor, and we are given a glimpse of what the Men of Numenor had been like. We see the contrast between Boromir and Faramir as well as the contrast between Frodo and Sam. Additionally, we are told about the dangers that lie on the road ahead, although the specifics of those dangers remain unknown. Inferno.

• Yes, excellent job Inferno. - Narya
• Princess Bride - yukailin
  Hey, that's one of Inigo Montoya's funniest lines. Oh, and good job punting on the chapter summary. Peace, Love and Rock & Roll,Kailin

• Thanks for stepping in, Inferno - Kimi
• Great job, very good points brought out. - Steve D
• Thanks, Inferno! Great job, as usual! - Patty
• Thanks for stepping in at the last minute - Annael
  and it's Princess Bride
• Great job! Thanks for stepping up. - septembrist
• Great job on short notice! - Frodo Hoy
• Book IV Chapter 6: The Forbidden Pool-- an alternate route? - Inferno
  Faramir attempts to persuade Frodo to not attempt the pass at Cirith Ungol. Frodo asks if there is another way. Faramir knows of none. Looking at any map that shows the region around Mordor shows that the eastern border has no mountains to guard it. While this route would undoubtably take much longer to reach the mountain, it seems, at least initially, to be much easier and preferable-- especially given our knowledge of Shelob and what occurs at the pass. So, if Frodo and Sam had taken this other route, and assuming they had adequate provisions to make the extended journey, how would the story have differed from what is written? Inferno.
• The gorgoroth (sp?) - Aiya
  I don't have LoTR handy- sorry.. but isn't the gorgoroth supposably full of ravines and other nasties that made it almost impossible to cross. It seemed like the only reason Sam & Frodo made it to Mt. Doom was because they hit Sauron's road to Oroduin- any other course would have resulted in a dead end (no pun intended)
• The Army of the West... - septembrist
  ...would have been defeated at the Black Gate. Frodo and Sam would have succumbed to Gollum's treachery or have been discovered by allies of Sauron.
  If the Ring were destroyed, there still would be no return of the king. Saruman may very well take Sauron's place after a long time to regroup. The west would probably never recover after the total defeat of its captains.
  Frodo was correct when he believed that delay would be to Sauron's advantage.

• I agree - Narya
  but if Frodo had eventually succeeded and destroyed the ring after the Army of the West had been defeated (highly unlikely though that would be), I think Dale, the dwarves of the Lonely Mountain, Lothlorien and Rivendell might have been able to put matters to rights, although it would depend how much damage Sauron had managed to inflict after Aragorns fall. Actually, thinking about it, it would almost certainly have been curtains for Frodo and Sam if the Army of the West failed. Sauron would most likely take prisoners (e.g. Pippin) and the cat would leap out of the bag. Even the wise cannot see all ends.

• good question - Steve D
  There were lots of people over there. That could have been a problem.
• from what point - yukailin
  You don't mention at what point the reroute would take place. Would they head East and go around once they saw the Black Gate and realized they couldn't get through there? Or would they meet up with Faramir, be dissuaded from going to Cirith Ungol and then head South first, then East, then back West from that side? Taking the first option, they could possibly have done things in the same time. But, Gollum was their tracker at the time, and he had never been that way, and of course, we all know he did have plans for them, mainly Shelob. Also, if they had headed East to go around, they never would have had the pleasure of the few days in Ithilien, nor would they have met Faramir. I think this meeting, the partaking of information on both sides, and the advice given, was crucial to the story. Otherwise, we wouldn't meet Faramir until after he arrived in Minas Tirith injured, and he wouldn't still be unaware of the full import of the goings on about the land, or of the possible return of the King. Frodo never told him, but he divined a lot from what was mentioned of the others in the Fellowship. Anyhow, if the path East had been taken from the Black Gate, they might have still been able to accomplish their goal in the same time, but who knows what other creatures they would have met on that road. Now, if they had turned South after meeting Faramir, they would have constantly run into the Harad, and other Sothrons before ever getting to the end of that mountain range. Then, if they had gotten past them, they would have had to head East for quite a long ways, and then up North a bit, into the dark lands, and straight to the mountain. This would have added considerable time to their trip, and thrown them into the path of numerable other enemies we may not have heard much of otherwise. The battle at the Black Gate would have come and gone, with a different outcome, since the Mouth of Sauron would not have had Frodo's things to taunt the Captains with. How the actual battle would have gone after that is anyone's guess, but I suppose the Eagle's still would have shown up and turned things for the good. Of course, the Nazgul would not have taken off back into the Dark Lands, but that is beside the point. You also run the risk of Sauron having time to look elsewhere after the battle was over, for good or for bad. So he might have seen them entering his lands from the other direction, since it would take them longer to get to Orodruin. Peace, Love and Rock & Roll,Kailin

• Book IV Chapter 6: The Forbidden Pool-- A Tale of Two Towers - Inferno
  As this chapter closes, Faramir relates in brief some of the history of Minas Ithil/Morgul. He also discusses in vague terms Cirith Ungol. One thing has always confused me at this point. Faramir is the one who states the name of Cirith Ungol, and he is aware that the wise men of Gondor fear it's very name, yet he knows nothing of the dangers involved. Tolkien spent a lot of time developing a consistent language for his world, and Ungol seems to relate to 'spider', as in Ungoliant. As knowledgable as Faramir is in other things, wouldn't he at least know the etymology of the name, and be able to offer some speculation as to the dangers that await them from that? In the next few chapters, we are told that Shelob lived there throughout the Third Age, and preyed upon the Men of Minas Ithil and Ithilien as they guarded the passes of Mordor. Again, we are given a sense of the greater history of Middle-Earth, specifically of Gondor. We can see in brief how the borders of Mordor became unguarded, and how evil was permitted to return. Does this add to the book, or detract from it? What else do you see as adding to this sense of a full history in this chapter? Inferno.
• Shelob - yukailin
  Well, in Return of the King, when Sam goes into the place to rescue Frodo, he notes that the building was obviously not made by Sauron and his forces to guard the pass into his land, but was made by man to keep the dark forces inside it. So, Cirith Ungol must not have been it's original name. I'm a bit confused on this point, but that is the feeling I got from the book. As to the name, and why Faramir would not know what was waiting for them in the pass, that could be easily explained. How many ever got away from Shelob? If anyone ever got away, and it seems clear by the few thoughts we read from Shelob herself, that no one get's away from her. So, if no one ever escaped to tell the story of the giant spider in the caves of the pass, then no one is going to know she is there. How the place got it's name is up for debate, but wouldn't it be just like Orcs to give a place a scary name when they take it over? They wouldn't want to keep the name used by the Men of Gondor, that would be too cheery and unlike Orcs to do that. Peace, Love and Rock & Roll,Kailin

• That doesn't really add up - dan_the_raccoon

In any case, since Faramir is obviously an insightful person, he should surely know what "Ungol" means, being a man of learning himself. He may not have specifically known a giant spider named Shelob dwelt up there, but one would think he would have been able to make an educated guess. Good catch, Inferno! "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger."

• You're right - Steve D
  That seems to be a contradiction. Never noticed it.
• Book IV Chapter 6: The Forbidden Pool-- Faramir & Numenor - Inferno
  My last two topics today deal with the sense of a deep history that (to me at least) permeate the whole of this chapter. The first of these ties in with Faramir. Besides Aragorn, Faramir is the first person we see who carries the air of Numenor with him. These men are few in the books. Denethor, and possibly Imrahil are the only others who really fit that mold still. This aura, if you will, seems to reflect in Faramir's men as well. The camp at Henneth Annun has little in resemblence with anything we've experienced in the way of outposts of Men so far (Bree and Rohan). As Faramir sits in judgement of Gollum, he shows great capacity for mercy and wisdom. He also seems to penetrate into Gollum's heart, and can see the future treachery lying there. Frodo says that Faramir reminds him of Gandalf. Faramir believes that Frodo detects from afar the air of Numenor. So, two questions on this point. 1) How do these references to the past affect the tone of the story for you? 2) What does this chapter show about the strength of Faramir's character, and the differences between he and Boromir? Would Boromir, for example, also have dealt so fairly with Gollum, assuming that the Ringlust didn't affect him? Inferno.
• There's a strong sense of the past greatness of Gondor - Kimi
  that only barely survives, in men like Faramir. This feeling is reinforced when we arrive at Minas Tirith with Gandalf and Pippin: a great city whose population has dwindled over the years, and which would, even without the war, probably continue to dwindle (without the return of the King, that is). Faramir is a truly great man, who combines great gifts with true humility. He's also endowed with deep intuition when it comes to judging characters. He perceives something of Frodo's greatness, and also perceives much of Gollum's wickedness. Boromir was a good man, but lacked many of Faramir's gifts, and had too much pride. I don't think he would have been cruel to Gollum, but I don't think he would have allowed him to leave Henneth Annun, either. He would have felt his judgement should override Frodo's.
• Classic second son syndrome - yukailin
  I agree that Denethor was another fallback to the Numenorian line, as he was able to use one of the Stones. Of course, it also seemed to get the best of him in the end. Who knows how long that had been affecting him, but it's clear that Boromir was the favorite. Knowing how dangerous the trip North to discover the meaning of the prophesy was, Denethor would have sent Faramir, if he had not been elsewhere at the time. This may be an unfair or harsh judgement of might of beens, and could have beens, but Denethor does admit he would have sent Faramir North if he had been around. Now, I believe the whole Fellowship would have had a different outcome if Faramir had been in their company, simply because he was wiser and had a stronger character. Boromir was a strong man, good warrior and good leader, but Faramir added wisdom to the package, and they both new it. I must say, even in the council, before the whole thing with the ring was mentioned, Boromir's attitude bothered me. True, Minas Tirith was the closest to the Dark Lands, and was in combat much more often than anywhere else, but he seemed to exude the attitude that everyone owed them something for that. This feeling was made evident throughout Fellowship of the Ring, and it has always bothered me. I guess I just don't like arrogant, cocky warrior types who don't temper their statements with understanding and compassion for other races and circumstances. Faramir, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have a problem imagining the motivations behind the action of a person from a far off land, on a duty that may or may not have anything to do with him. He was obviously knowledgeable, since he knew as much about the prophecy as anyone else in Gondor. And he seems to have done some research on his own, trying to solve the meaning of the prophecy, which shows great depth of knowledge and understanding on his part. So, hearing Frodo's stories, he was able to piece things together, and to understand where his brother might have taken that same explanation and turned it into something that finally caught up with him in the end. I don't think Boromir would have dealt so fairly with Gollum, simply because he was more a warrior, and warriors don't leave possibly danger lying around without eliminating it. Faramir had a better understanding that different kinds of people act differently, and it doesn't make it wrong. So, he listened to Frodo's reasoning, debated with him, and abided by the outcome of that discussion. Peace, Love and Rock & Roll,Kailin

• sad thing about Boromir - Steve D
  It was his goodness that killed him. He felt the responsibility of being the eldest son and really give everything to try to do what he thought was right. Because Faramir was the second son he had more freedom to grow into his own person, not just follow his father's point of view.
• Hmm, about Boromir . . . - Annael
  Interesting question, one I'd never thought of. IF Boromir had not been affected by the Ring, yes, I think he would have been fair to Gollum. Remember Pippin liked him and thought of him as "kindly," and Pippin was certainly the junior and least important member of the Fellowship. However, I can't see Boromir letting Frodo go on. He was a more controlling sort of person than Faramir, and I can see him deciding that it would be in Frodo's bests interests for him not to be allowed to go into Mordor at all. Also, even if the Ring didn't affect him personally, I do think he'd still think it would be better to keep it in Gondor or at least bring it to his father for counsel.
• To the glory that was Greece - septembrist
  and the grandeur that was Rome.
  I think Faramir was pessimistic of the outcome of the war and was harking back to the glory of Numenor and its golden age. His sense of history or nostalgia is prompted by the knowledge that the Ring is going to parts unknown and may very well be captured by the enemy.
  This chapter gives me (and Frodo and Faramir) a sense of what is at stake - civilization itself.
• old and new age - Steve D
  Great observation Inferno. I certainly see
  Faramir as a representative of an earlier, more civilized age.
• Book IV Chapter 6: The Forbidden Pool-- Frodo & Sam - Inferno
  There has been a lot of discussion about whether Frodo or Sam is the true hero of the Lord of the Rings. My general attitude is that Frodo starts as the hero, and that Sam finishes the tale as the hero. Still, both characters show heroic qualities throughout the books. What does Sam's and Frodo's reactions to Faramir's question "Shall we shoot?" reveal about the nature of both characters at this point in the tale? Which character shows the more heroic qualities? How would you answer that question, if you were in Frodo's place? Inferno.
• As fine a character as Sam is, - Frodo Hoy
  he betrays a flaw in his attitude to Gollum. Not in relation to his suspicion of Gollum, but to the very point your question seems to make - Sam needs to embrace mercy more completely than he has to this point. Frodo's strength is clearly on display as he continues to carry through with his merciful ways to Gollum. Yes, it is true that as far as physical and mental energy are concerned, Sam is at the forefront during the last stages of the journey to Orodruin. But Sam does not share the burden with Frodo. Frodo would not complete the task without Sam (or Gollum, for that matter), but that should not lessen his accomplishment in bearing the Ring to the Cracks of Doom. Heroic? It was nearly supernatural for him to make it there!
• The task was clearly beyond a single hero. - Nenya
  Why can't we say that there were two heroes ... the one who carried the Ring and the one who carried Ring-bearer? There would have been no hero at all to the story if Sam and Frodo hadn't formed such a perfect team. They had no Id to speak of at all - each saw themselves as part of something bigger. Sam saw himself as a servant to Frodo's quest, while Frodo had perhaps a larger vision and saw himself as part of a battle to fight forces that he himself could not understand. Sam was not the only one with a fatal flaw. Frodo was afflicted by fatalism. As he grew weaker, he grew less optimistic of his chances of survival (perhaps some would call that being "realistic" instead of "fatalistic") and indeed despaired of succeeding in the quest at all. It was Sam's unquenchable willingness to proceed that saved the mission as much as anything. I guess I really don't see a way of separating the two and deciding who was more heroic. The fact that both Frodo and Sam achieved passage to the West testifies to the fact that they were both heroic in the eyes of the guardians of Middle Earth.

• Gosh, and this was the gal who was reluctant to... - Patty
  join the reading discussion because she thought her opinions weren't smart enough? Nenya, as usual, you hit the nail right on the head!
• Excellent answer, Nenya - Kimi
• two sides - Steve D
  Great points everyone. My general feeling is that Frodo represents more the intellect and will and Sam the heart. Clearly both are needed.
• Thank you for that Frodo-defense, Frodo... - Hmpf
  I would have posted something along those lines, but I'm too d*** busy learning all about metals and acids and other important theoretical stuff for goldsmiths at the moment... :-(
• Fatalism? - Niphredil33
  I don't personally see Frodo as having a fatal flaw (that's not the same thing as thinking he's perfect). I see the "fatalism" as being the effects of torment, exhaustion and the way the ring itself affected mood and will - it even worked on Sam for the short time he bore it ("One thing the ring did not confer, and that was courage - he thought only of hiding" (rough quote). which actually makes Frodo even more heroic, because the ring does him no favours at all in terms of contributing to his bravery and heart - that has to all come from his own strength and resistance. Frodo is realistic, yes, in that from Day One he doesn't expect to make it home, or even succeed - pretty logical. Gandalf himself says "There was no hope" in Unfinished Tales, and expresses the same kind of view to Pippin in Minas Tirith. But Frodo is also deeper and maturer than Sam, more sensitive - more time to think, perhaps, being of the landed class. But he's also fairly youthful and happy-go-lucky, at least in his younger days. And if you examine the term "fatalistic" - how about in terms of an inescapable fate being imposed on him, closing around him closer every day, rather than him drawing the Immanent Will (as it were) upon himself in willing self-destruction?
• Book IV Chapter 6: The Forbidden Pool-- The Ring. - Inferno
  The Ring's power is tempered in Ithilien. Frodo feels its weight less during his sojourn here. When Gollum arrives at the pool, Frodo believes that he came to this place, not because of the lure of the Ring-- which, to this point, has caused him to leave his home under the mountains to chase Bilbo, caused him to dare the borders of Mordor in his desire to gain it, has caused him to follow Frodo through Moria, into Lothlorien (where he would be in danger of recapture by Elves, something he seems to fear), down Anduin, across the Broken Hills. It has cause him to pledge service to Frodo, and to lead him across the Dead Marshes to the Black Gate itself. Is the lure of the Ring muted in Ithilien with regard to Gollum as well, or is his hunger merely a more powerful motivator at this point than his lust for the Ring? In what other ways are the Ring's effects limited here? Could it be that Faramir is also not moved by a desire to posess the Ring (as Boromir was), because its power is less here, in addition to Faramir's greater strength of character? Inferno.
• Ring lust. - septembrist
  For Frodo and Sam, the power of the Ring is muted because Ithilien reminds them of better and happier times. They see that good is still not entirely defeated and hope remains. However, I do not think the Ring itself is affected in any way. Ithilien is simply affecting Frodo and Sam.
  As for Gollum, I do believe that he is simply looking for food, but there is no question he is hanging about because he is waiting or looking for Frodo and the Ring.
• spot on - Phoebus
• I agree, septembrist - Kimi
  It seems to me that Frodo is more able to resist the Ring in Ithilien because the place itself gives him strength, not because the Ring itself becomes weaker. And Faramir resists the Ring because he has more strength of character than Boromir. It might also help that Faramir never actually sees the Ring. Perhaps it might have had slightly less pull on Boromir had he not seen it at the Council.
• With respect to Faramir - Phoebus
  I think he still would have been able to withstand the power of the ring had Ithilien not had the weakening affect on the ring.
• True, it seems - lockdar
  that at Henneth Annun Gollum is motivated by hunger, but how can a force so strong as the One Ring not be a motivation for Gollum. I think that this Ring always was his major motivation. Other things could sometimes equal this desire but never overcome it completely.
• Book IV Chapter 6: The Forbidden Pool-- Gollum - Inferno
  The majority of this chapter focuses on events surrounding Gollum-- his arrival at Henneth Annun, his subsequent capture, and his judgement at the hands of Faramir. What do we learn about Gollum in this chapter? Do the circumstances here help to set Gollum in his later path of betrayal? If the situation had worked out to where Gollum had been handled less roughly, and not felt betrayed by Frodo, would things have turned out different in Shelob's Lair? Inferno.
• "What ifs" are difficult. - Kimi
  Gollum's betrayal of the hobbits to Shelob rested on a knife-edge, and it was Sam's harshness that nudged Gollum to go on with the betrayal. Maybe, just maybe, if Gollum himself hadn't felt betrayed by Frodo at this point he might've resisted that particular temptation in Cirith Ungol. Probably not, though. The main thing that strikes me about Gollum in this chapter is his loneliness and miserable existence.
• I think he would have done the same - lockdar
  His betrayel in Shelob's Lair has (as far as I see it) nothing to do with the events at henneth annun, Gollum is too far corrupted by the Ring to withstand any small change of getting it. Ok, there are several exceptions, like when the Hobbits are sleeping ect. But I think the chance of getting the Ring back thru Shelob was too great to resist.
• The Black Gate - Phoebus
  I think he decided much earlier in the ash pits in front of the Black Gate. Is that right? I don't have my tome in front of me.
• Book IV Chapter 6: The Forbidden Pool - Inferno
  Compare these two passages: (from the previous chapter) "It faced westward. The level shafts of the setting sun behind beat upon it, and the red light was broken into many flickering beams of ever-changing colour. It was as if they stood at the window of some elven-tower, curtained with threaded jewels of silver and gold, and ruby, sapphire and amethyst, all kindled with an unconsuming fire." (from Chapter 6): "As he went by the cave-mouth he save that the Curtain was now become a dazzling veil of silk and pearls and silver thread: melting icicles of moonlight." Additionally, we are given this passage as well: "Far off in the West the full moon was sinking, round and white. Pale mists shimmered in the great vale below: a wide gulf of silver fume, beneath which rolled the cool night-waters of the Anduin. A black darkness loomed beyond, and in it glinted, here and there, cold, sharp, remote, white as the teeth of ghosts, the peaks of Ered Nimrais, the White Mountains of the Realm of Gondor, tipped with everlasting snow." To my mind, these images (and one later tied with the sun setting at the king's statue at the crossroads) bring a sense of hope, that although Frodo and Sam are about to enter the Blackness of Mordor, light still abounds. The references to the West, as well as the light, hint at the Valar, indicating that they have not forsaken Middle-Earth utterly. The first two passages both relate to the waterfall of Henneth Annun. What do the two pictures bring to your mind? The discriptions are brief, but they really create a dazzling picture. What do you see, and does it hold a deeper meaning in the tale? Inferno.
• Maybe my number one reason for loving LOTR: - Hmpf
  Tolkien's descriptions are incredibly evocative. I love the passages you quoted. I am, in fact, planning a piece of jewelry based on Henneth Annun at the moment... :-)
• Amen (plus aside) - Annael
  At this point I mostly re-read the book just for passages like this. I shiver and yawn as I get up with Frodo, but forget the cold and my tiredness as I look out through the moonlit waterfall. For a moment the beauty of the world makes me forget all else. I'd love to see a pic of that piece of jewelry once you finish it, Hmpf! What are you going to make it in? Silver?
• At the moment it's only an idea, and I don't have time to work on it - Hmpf
  but I mostly work in silver, yes. I have several ideas for Tolkien jewelry. I just hope I'll somehow find the time to *make* these things, too. But when I do, I'll take pictures to post on my website, of course! :-)
• It's interesting how well Tolkien - Kimi
  uses symbolism. The symbolism is so overt regarding Henneth Annun that in the hands of a lesser writer it might be heavy-handed. We have this refuge: a last, secret outpost of the Westernesse-founded kingdom of Gondor, that looks West. We have the symbolism of the light, first the light of sunset, then the pure, white light of the Moon. And, of course, we have the sheer beauty of the light upon the water. All these are symbols of goodness; of the West, of Elvenhome, and of that which is beyond. All things that Faramir and his men openly pay tribute to, which is unusual in LOTR. The glimpse of beauty that we get in this chapter makes the horror of Mordor all the more powerful. It also emphasises the strength of will that allows Frodo to leave this last refuge and continue with his (apparently) hopeless task.
• East and West symbolism - yukailin
  Well, I must say that the beauty related in this section was stunning, and evoked rich visions in my mind, which is the wonder of Tolkien's writing. But, I must say I don't go in for this theory of East vs. West. Yes, in the story, it is the East vs. the West, but even in Middle Earth, the sun sets in the West, which is the end of a day, or the Death of a day, however you want to look at it. In our world, Eastern philosophies think the West is where we go to die, which is why Asian cemetaries face West, so that the setting sun, end of the day, mirrors the end of life. With the sun rising in the East, it brings light, life, energy, new hope, etc. This is true now, and in Middle Earth. So, as opposed to thinking this sequence is a reference to visions of the far off Grey Haven, or whatever, I think it's more just a way to demonstrate passing beauty. After all, when Faramir is taking them outside, and Sam sees the moonlight reflecting off the waterfall, it states he doesn't really register it's beauty, so worried is he for Frodo's safety. Oh, and the whole thing about the cave facing West, I think it's more that it's just easier to keep something hidden from an enemy if you don't have your secret hideout facing straight towards him, but away instead. Peace, Love and Rock & Roll,Kailin

• the West - Astaldil
  Although Faramir is one of the more learned characters in Middle-earth, I doubt he would know about the Valar and about the Sun and the Moon. The Elven stories were not known to men at the time of tLoTR, and indeed, it is not until much after (supposedly) that Aelfwine finds his way to The Cottage of Lost play and the stories are made known to men again. almare elyen,

  Istyandur

• Water symbolism, too; plus about the Valar - Idril Celebrindal

Inferno
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Apr262009,4:07am

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• Book IV, Chapter 7: Transitional Chapter - Gorel
  This chapter is one of those that moves the plot along from one stage to another without any major events or character interactions. In this case, from Faramir to Shelob. Even in a chapter that largely serves to move the characters from point A to point B, Tolkien manages to expose subtleties in the relationships between the characters, immerse us in the landscape and atmosphere of Middle-earth, and keep us on the edge of our seats with elements of horror. Yet I think for people who don't particularly like Lord of the Rings, these kinds of chapters are often the problem. "How much time can you spend describing the terrain?", is a pretty common complaint. After the climactic battle of Helm's Deep and the Han Solo-level coolness factor of Faramir, Sam and Frodo and Gollum trudging along on their gloomy path is hardly eventful or glamorous. But I think Tolkien fans are people who enjoy the trip, who appreciate a little more time to get to know these characters, a few more chances to play the tourist at a Middle-earth vista. They want to stay IN the story, and look around, at everything and nothing in particular. And since Tolkien doesn't allow these transitional chapters to be empty, but fills them up with Gollum's humor and the dreadful rumblings, etc, there's plenty to enjoy if you take the time.
  That's all I have to say about this chapter.

• Yes, good analysis Gorel - Narya
  On my first reading of the books I zoomed through this chapter, because not a great deal occurs and I was overly anxious to find out what was going to happen at Cirith Ungol. But on subsequent re-readings I was rewarded. The text is rich with gems, such as the moment you mentioned when the sunlight shines, and the king briefly regains his crown. Even the wise cannot see all ends.

• oh good, the fire's still lit in here *rubs hands together*... - Patty
  Thanks for the trip through this chapter, Gorel. It's very true, we Tolkien fans want to be IN the chapters, to look around, using his words for eyes , and see all there is to see, even though others might find this slow-moving. Thanks again.
• Well said! And well-led. Thanks, Gorel. - Kimi
• Book IV, Chapter 7: The Crown - Gorel
  "'Look! The king has got a crown again!'
  "The eyes were hollow and the carven beard was broken, but about the high stern forehead there was a coronal of silver and gold. A trailing plant with flowers like small white stars had bound itself across the brows as if in reverence for the fallen king, and in the crevices of his stony hair yellow stonescrop gleamed.
  "'They cannot conquer for ever!' said Frodo. And then suddenly the brief glimpse was gone. The Sun dipped and vanished, and as if at the shuttering of a lamp, black night fell." Tolkien closes this chapter by briefly and elegantly rasing the spirits of both Frodo and the reader, before dropping them immediately into gloom. Is the crown a sign of the fate that seems to push and follow Frodo's task?
• I think it's part of the same theme - Kimi
  that Sam expresses in his lovely "Why, we're part of the same story!" remark. Sauron and his works will pass; whether or not the free races of Arda will survive his works in another matter. Perhaps this glimpse of hope is sent to Frodo to strengthen him, just as his dreams seem to be.
• That is one of my favourite quotes - Vidstige
  If I were to make these movies I would consider ending the second movie right there. Sure, I would lose the cliff hanger that the book ends with, but it would be easier to keep a straight timeline. I would still get a few decent cliff hangers: Frodo and Sam are about to enter Mordor, Aragorn has just entered The Paths of the Dead and darkness has started to flow out of Mordor.
• Book IV, Chapter 7: Horror Stories - Gorel
  This chapter struck me with some of its creepy elements of horror. It seems appropriate since this is the beginning of the section of the books which could most easily be called a horror story. Wraiths, ruins, sickly moonlight, these are all elements of a good scary campfire tale, and of course we know what this is building up to. "...;and beside it on the hither side a road went winding down like a pale ribbon, down into chill grey mists that no gleam of sunset touched. There it seemed to Frodo that he descried far off, floating as it were on a shadowy sea, the high dim tops and broken pinnacles of old towers forlorn and dark." "But there was an evil feeling in the air, as if things might indeed be passing up and down that eyes could not see. Frodo shuddered as he looked again at the distant pinnacles now dwindling into night, and the sound of the water seemed cold and cruel: the voice of Morgulduin, the polluted stream that flowed from the Valley of the Wraiths."
• The Ringwraiths and all to do with them - Kimi
  are particularly horrible. Even the orcs are frightened of the Nazgul. Everything associated with them is "wrong". Flowers grow in their vale, but they are horrible, nightmare flowers. Much of Mordor is barren of life, but the Morgul Vale is the home of things undead.

• Makes you think of Dracula... and the.. - Patty
  old zombie stories.

• Yes, indeed - Kimi
  I did a post a while ago comparing the Ringwraiths to vampires. There're several similarities.
• Minas Morgul, Tower of Sorcery - Idril Celebrindal
  I think that Tolkien's description of Minas Morgul has elements of gothic horror -- the ruins, the sense of dread, the feeling of watchful eyes, etc. All of this combines to create a brooding sense of menace. It's interesting also to contrast this with the descriptions of other haunted places such as the Dead Marshes and the Paths of the Dead. Neither of them have the sense of lurking horror that Minas Morgul has. The Dead Marshes are ghastly, but their shades evoke pity as much as horror. The Paths of the Dead are terrifying, yet there is a sense that their terror is impersonal. The horror of Minas Morgul is a horror that knows your name and is actively seeking to find you.
• Book IV, Chapter 7: Terrain - Gorel
  Before a couple of years ago I had never really been on or around big mountains, and not around smaller ranges much. I grew up very near to the Potomac River, where all the roads are curvy and there's streams and trees everywhere. So I always found it easiest to visualize the beginning of the hobbit's journey, especially the Shire. In fact, the images we've seen of the Shire from the movies so far remind me of home. When they hit the downs I began to rely more and more on photographs and movies to visualize the terrain Tolkien was describing, and when they reached the Misty Mountains I couldn't use my own experiences at all. Minas Tirith in particular was always a little frustrating, because I couldn't quite see Mount Mindolluin with my own eyes, even though Tolkien described it so beautifully (purple!). But a few trips through Donner pass and to Boulder and other places out here in the West have finally changed that for me. And in my last reading of this chapter, for the first time, I really visualized the terrain and the valley and the looming Ephel Duath. Has anybody else had trouble picturing certain parts of Middle-earth? Nenya should have an advantage imagining Rivendell, being in Pennsylvania where the turnpike looks down into all those sharp, lush valleys. Kimi probably has the easiest time!
• I find it hard to visualize the area leading up to... - Patty
  Mount Doom. The closest I get to it is thinking about pictures I've seen of volcanos and lava melts in Hawaii and that island that is half gone from recent volcano activity whose name is escaping me for the present.
• I found the Shire difficult first - Draupne
  After having had a couples of looks at the English countryside, it's easier. I'm used to fjords and valleys , and they didn't fit the Shire. For the rest of the landscapes, with exception of Lothlorien, I've seen similar terrain. At least it's similar in my imagination :-)
• Yes, but it does give me a special problem - Kimi
  when it comes to the movies: some of those places are just too familiar to me. When I saw the Internet teaser, I saw Mount Doom and said, "Oh, Ngaruahoe!" A mountain I know well. But certainly, the range of landscapes I've been exposed to does help envisage Middle-earth.
• It's easy for me since we have everything in California, good topic. - Steve D
• Book IV, Chapter 7: Humor - Gorel
  The Lord of the Rings has a lot of very funny subtle humor. Gollum gets some of the best lines, and there's a real gem in this chapter: "Are we rested? Have we had beautiful sleep?" he said. "Let's go!"
• On the BBC audio, Peter Woodthorpe... - Patty
  captures all the nuances of Gollum's humor, IMHO.
• Gollum - Inferno
  He seems to be a cynical voice (dare I say) of reason at times, reminding the other characters and the readers of some of the larger points. Like in the last chapter, when Faramir has Gollum on trial: "Oh so very wise, they are, yes precious, so very just. Only wants fishes and they say death." (This isn't an exact quote, as I don't have the book with me.) He tends to strip away the sense of nobility that Faramir carries with him. Faramir manages to recover from it. The hobbits (especially Sam) have less luck in this regard. My absolute favorite line of Gollum's is when he's accused by Sam of 'sneaking'. Frodo asks what he's been up to, and he replies, 'No rest for Smeagol, no precious, he's a sneak.' This is one scene that I really love in the Bakshi film. 'Hullo, Gollum, where have you been?' 'SNEAKIN! HMPH!' Inferno.
• My favorite Gollum moment - GaladrielTX
  (in the last chapter): 'But tonight you have come where it is death to come. The fish of this pool are dearly bought.'
  Gollum dropped the fish from his hand. 'Don't want fish,' he said.
• Yes! I love that one too - Kimi
  The juxtaposition of Faramir's lofty remark and Gollum's literal interpretation is wonderful.
• hmmm - Steve D
  I wonder if Gollum will be someone that people can identify with personally. Kind of like C3PO in Star Wars. The attitude that is.
• Yup - Gorel
  That was pulled off great in the Bakshi film! Laugh out loud funny. I hope PJ picks up on as many as these as possible. It's that level of writing that would elevate LOTR over hack fantasy (as opposed to, oh say, an all CGI slapstick doofus stepping in doodoo).
• Book IV, Chapter 7: Humble Heros - Gorel
  Sam dreams that he's back in the garden at Bagend, thinking he's got a lot of work to do, and looking for some pipeweed. The dream is very humanizing and portrays him in a humble light. He doesn't, for instance, dream about Elbereth or victory, or even the Ring. Tolkien leaves the grand ambitions for characters like Aragorn whose burden and task are ultimately easier than Sam and Frodo's. The greatest heros of the book are simple people who'd rather be smoking a pipe or tending a garden, which is what makes them especially suited for their quest.
• Very much agree. - Steve D
  I was thinking of another book, "The Worm Oroborus" by E.R. Eddison (I hope I got that right). In this story the heroes are so perfect they are uninteresting. But the bad guys make up for it.
• favorites - Gorel
  Even Sam and Frodo are a little too pure for my tastes, as far as favorite characters go. Frodo is tested and especially in the last book it's interesting to watch him change (and fail). And Sam becomes a lot wiser after being exposed to the wider world (and elves). But both start with an intrinsic humility and goodness that makes them rather constant morally. And characters like Aragorn and Faramir are even less fascinating to me because they're so inaccessible (like the heros from Oroborus, it seems). My favorite characters are Boromir, Gollum and Denethor, in that order. I wouldn't call any of them "bad guys". The true villains are Sauron, the Wraiths, orcs and other characters who seem rigidly malevolent. But each of my favorites is tortured and conflicted, and their dilemna provides real psychological insights.
• Gorel's Point - Niphredil33
  Hmmm - Boromir a Coriolanus figure, perhaps? Gollum is one of my faves, but Frodo wins hands down, with Faramir second and Gollum 3rd. I was watching Brideshead Revisited again (the 80's TV Drama) and Sebastian Flyte's descent into agonised depression and alcoholism (stunningly acted) made me think of Frodo under the duress of the Ring. Imperfection is necessary if you are to warm to and identify with a character - for me it is, anyway. Skarpheðinn of Njal’s Saga is also one of my favourite literary characters. Flawed, outstandingly brave, self-destructive, psychotic - and with an unquenchable spirit, not to mention a WICKED sense of humour. Let's hear it for Gollum! And even more for Frodo - the only person who ever really got through to him.
• Well, any one who's read my posts over last year... - Patty
  knows my heros are the elves, and then Sam in that order. The elves because they're magical and spiritual (according to MY definitions of the words) even though they are NOT perfect and certainly not humble. But Sam because he IS humble and dependable. The other "heros" mentioned may be more interesting, but the elves and Sam are my favorites.

• Not knocking Sam! - Gorel
  He's the man. If I had to choose someone to have a pint with, it wouldn't be Boromir, Gollum or Denethor. Boromir might even be the worst, because although I might be able to placate or tune out Gollum, Boromir's socially awkward conceit would be insufferable: "I do not ask for another glass, although I will drink one so that you might not befuddle yourself with no companion at your side. Nay, friend, take not my words too much to heart! We men of Gondor are strong in beer and liquor and wine, and indeed all spirits, and a round that might strike low other men is but a wetting of our lips." But I like thinking about their tortured souls.

• That was scary. - GaladrielTX
  Doubly so because it reminded me of that drunk guy who hit on me at the company Christmas party last weekend. I have no idea who he was, but I'm just guessing he works in sales or marketing. Boromir is just the kind of windbag you'd expect to see in a director or junior VP position around the corporate office. Or maybe someone who used to work at the corporate office but got exiled out to a really isolated field office because he annoyed too many executives.
• From an as-yet-unpublished volume of HoME? - Kimi
  You capture the tone delightfully!
• :o) !! - Patty
• I prefer imperfect characters - yukailin
  Well, I must say that I prefer my heroes flawed, and my villains somewhat remorseful. The best villains are those who believe they are doing something right, or at least, have a reason that isn't necessarily greed based. So, as you can see, Boromir could fall into both categories, which certainly does make him interesting. Frodo does become more interesting as the tale wears on, because the Ring's influence starts to manifest itself more often. Maybe this is why I have always like the Arthurian legend so much, nearly everyone has a flaw, but it's the goal they are striving for that makes them better than they would be without a goal. Peace, Love and Rock & Roll,Kailin

• Book IV, Chapter 7: Henneth Annun and Lorien - Gorel
  This chapter begins with Faramir saying farewell to the hobbits as they head to Mordor. I was struck by the similarities with their departure from Lorien. In both cases they receive gifts, some of which are imbued with the spirit of their makers. The Elven cloaks are "a great aid in keeping out of the sight of unfriendly eyes", because the Elves "put the thought of all that we love into all that we make." Faramir gives them staves, "and a virtue has been set upon them of finding and returning." Thought and virtue are the real powers of these gifts, which demonstrates what I love about Tolkien's "magic". They also receive food for their journey. Both Lorien and Henneth Annun are secret, and the guests are blindfolded to enter. In both places his host looks into Frodo's heart to judge him, and there is the threat that the Ring will be taken. So while each initially represents safety, they are also each a test. Frodo sets out from both places with a companion who will betray him for the Ring. Rivendell, Lorien and Henneth Annun each give Frodo shelter, rest and aid on his way to Orodruin. In each of these refuges is a person whose power represents past glory: Elrond of the Last Alliance, Galadriel of Valinor, and Faramir the Numenorean. I'm just putting these things out here :)
• parallels abound - yukailin
  Yes, there do seem to be parallels for Frodo and Sam in Lorien and Henneth Annun. For all the reasons stated in the first post, but also for what the land seems to represent. Lorien is like a place out of time, not wholly in Middle-Earth, touched by the magic of the Elves as a reminder of the West. Henneth Annun and the land surrounding it is almost too peaceful for the hobbits to believe. After all, they know how close they are to Mordor, and yet, they can feel the peace of the land and rest in it's beauty. It's almost an echo of Numenor, brought about by the vigilance of the descendents of that race. Peace, Love and Rock & Roll,Kailin

• a dream - Gorel
  Good point, and it reminds me of this line in the chapter: "The forest where Faramir had stood seemed empty and drear, as if a dream had passed."
• on gifts... appropo X-mas - Greyhame
  I especially like your insight on thought and virtue being the real powers of the gifts they recieve in Lorien and Henneth Annun, and of the nature of Tolkien's gifts in general. It reminds me of Smith of Wootton Major...
  "Isn't it mine? It came to me, and may a man not keep things that come to him so, at the least as a remembrance?
  Some things. Those that are free gifts and given for remembrance. But others are not so given. They cannot belong to a man forever, nor be treasured as heirlooms. They are lent." The most precious kind of gift, I gather, is such that one is barely aware of it and is not specifically in one's "possession". BTW Smith of Wootton Major is a great little tale. For its brevity, it is hugely touching, and becauses of its meditation on the gift of fantasy/middle earth it is especially meaningful or most TORNadoes. If you haven't read it, find a copy!
• The parallels are indeed striking - Kimi
  The only one I'd baulk at is comparing Boromir to Gollum, though certainly both are tempted by the Ring. Boromir does repent, and I don't think he actually betrays Frodo. I noticed that Gollum refuses to share the food that Faramir gives them, just as he did the food of Lorien. Perhaps it had picked up the scent of lembas, but it does seem that perhaps Gollum finds it offensive in its own right.
• Boromir and Smeagol - Gorel
  That's an interesting issue; how different are Boromir and Smeagol's failures? Obviously their motivations are different. Boromir is desperate to save the world, and Smeagol is desperate to end his own misery. But the Ring corrupts both of them, and preys on their fears. Boromir is afraid both for his people and for himself; how can the great son fail Gondor and his father by not returning with the weapon their Enemy dreads most? And Gollum, practically channeling the Ring, says to Smeagol in their final argument, "See, my precious: if we has it, then we can escape, even from Him, eh?" The memory of his torture at Sauron's hands must be so terrible for Smeagol as they head straight to Mordor, and Gollum knows what buttons to push. But I'd say Boromir's chief flaw was his pride, whereas Smeagol basically has none by the time he betrays Frodo, he's been under the dominion of the Ring (and Gollum) for so long. And Boromir is a man with good intentions who makes what is really one small mistake at just the wrong time (and that might not have been an accident), and then regrets and redeems himself. Smeagol, on the other hand, is a thief and a murderer who shows one short glimpse of the potential he used to have before he had the Ring. So I could understand not being comforatble with labeling Boromir a traitor, or comparing him to Gollum.
• Smeagol's pride - Gorel
  In a way, a lot of what Frodo gives Smeagol through his kindness is pride. After all those years alone, guilty and pathetically enslaved to his precious, Smeagol must have been utterly humiliated and ashamed of himself. To have the "nice hobbit" treat with him respect and dignity (as much as possible) must have given him a rare sense of self-worth. Tolkien really understands the nature of sin.
• So true. - Greyhame
  The dynamic of Frodo and Smeagol's partnership has always fascinated me. I think the fact that they both have possessed the ring for a time gives them a strong empathetic link which is only hinted at in the book. I imagine it is this link to the ring and not solely Gandalf's advice which compells Frodo to treat Smeagol with respect.
• Book IV, Chapter 7: On Gorse - Gorel

• Don't think I've ever seen this...and from.. - Patty
  the sound of things I think I prefer the dreaded dandelion.
• Well spotted, Gorel :-) - Kimi

Inferno
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Apr262009,4:09am

Post #35 of 65(29538 views)
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• "The Stairs of Cirith Ungol" -- summing it all up - Kyriel
  When it comes to Minas Morgul, Tolkien certainly spends a lot of time describing a place we never get to see up close. The former Tower of the Moon has also been the subject of several paintings by artists such as Alan Lee, Roger Garland and Rob Alexander. The Reading Room regulars compared the three artists’ renditions, and while no clear favorite emerged, everyone agreed that Garland’s version of Minas Morgul was the weakest. In general, the board agreed that we wanted more of a sense of horror and deadness than we saw in any of the three featured paintings. The buildings should be intact and clearly Numenorian in origin, but we should sense the corruption that has taken place under Sauron’s rule. When Frodo sees the Witch King and feels a temptation to put on the Ring, he realizes that he does “not yet” have the power to face the Lord of the Nazgul. The board agrees that the Ring planted the suggestion in his mind that one day he possibly COULD dominate the Witch King; but we disagree on whether or not he could really ever do it. Certainly Frodo shows great strength of will in resisting the Ring even at this point, and people like Gandalf and Galadriel have seen true greatness in him. But the GOODNESS of his strong will might prevent him from ever learning to truly dominate another being. The set piece of this chapter is the discussion between Sam and Frodo about the “great tales” and the heroes that populate them. Tolkien uses this passage to make us think about the relationship between authors, their characters, and their readers – and to make us think about our own outlook on life.
  1) Sam notes that the best kind of heroes are ordinary people who just get thrust into the great stories; and the board agrees, noting that most of the heroes of LotR (Boromir being the exception) don’t go out seeking adventure, and that even if the heroes of The Silmarillion are often “greater” to begin with, they don’t go out looking for trouble, either (except for Feanor). In any case, it’s the ordinary people, doubts shortcomings and all, with whom we best identify – and that makes for the best storytelling.
  2) By Sam’s definition, LotR would be a great tale with a sad – or at least bittersweet – ending. The Ring is destroyed, but Frodo is permanently scarred and the world, as the people of Middle-earth know, will never be the same again. This theme of change or “fading” is central to LotR as a whole, and rings particularly true for us in our own lives. Perhaps this is one of the reasons the books affect us so deeply. There’s no happily-ever-after in our own lives, either.
  3) In this “story and life” section, Tolkien not only expresses this truth about life (things change) but suggests ways of dealing with it. Frodo notes that some people are inclined to “shut the book on” the bad parts of life, and because of his weariness in this chapter, we might wonder if he’d like to shut the book on his own present struggles – this is still open to debate. In any case, he and Sam are both on the path to heroism, while Gollum would rather be a victim. At the end of the chapter, Tolkien offers us a moment of possible redemption for Gollum, where he sees Frodo sleeping and seriously considers NOT betraying him. The moment, however, is broken by Sam, who wakes and calls Gollum a “sneak” and a villain. There’s great irony in the fact that, if not for Sam’s cruelty and Gollum’s subsequent betrayal, our story might have had a truly tragic ending – or if a happy one, certainly a much less realistic one. Irony is a fact of life, and the worst kinds of betrayal can lead to the greatest victories.

• Thanks to you, Kyriel, for a great job leading this chapter! - Frodo Hoy
• Shelob's Lair - Goth-helm
  Excellant. The only thought I have to offer on your observations is on point #1. I seem to think that the heros are not JUST ordinary people, but odinary people that have found their nitch or place in the world as they know it. Thus the situation that arises "tears" them from their "comfortable life style" and thrusts them into a situation that they would not normaly encounter, ei. Feanor and the fact that Morgoth coveted the jewels for he had not the ability or fortitude (desire to take the time)to make the Simarillis or their likness.
  Another example might be Bilbos inclusion in the "adventure" to the lonly mountain, remember his first reaction to Gandalf...Good Day!
  Just a thought that was envoked by your supperb veiw of the chapter, Thank You.
• Very nice summing-up, Kyriel! Thanks for the discussion. - Kimi
• Thanks, Kyriel - Gorel
  I especially was interested in your last point about Gollum, and wish I'd had a chance to come up with a coherent response.
• Excellent, Kyriel. And thank you! - Patty
• Excellent summing up Kyriel - Narya
  Personally I very much doubt that Frodo would have had the strength of will to dominate the Witch King, not without many years of training his own mind. Frodo was strong, yes, but the Witch King was a mighty man in his own right, with many thousands of years of experience behind him.
• "The Stairs of Cirith Ungol": The Road(s) not Taken - Kyriel
  Gollum finds Frodo and Sam asleep, with Frodo's head in Sam's lap:

• Possibilities. - septembrist
  An obvious possibility is that Gollum undergoes a change of heart and throws his loyalty to Frodo. He assists them into Mordor to the point of sacrificing himself to ensure Frodo's survival, hence redeeming himself. This has become a rather cliched storyline and I believe would not have had the same power as the actual ending. Throughout the story of Gollum Tolkien strives to emphasis the virtue of pity/mercy - especially for such a creature as Gollum. Such pity/mercy was rewarded ironically by the destruction of the Ring by Gollum's actions. Hence, mercy is not only good in and of itself, it can have the most unknowable consequences that even the wise cannot see.
  Not a very concise or clear thought but there it is.
• I think what you said at the end is actually the case - Frodo Hoy
  Both in fiction and in real life, a good outcome sometimes is dependent on the evil or wrong actions of an individual or a group of individuals. It is one of the most amazing things in life and is perfectly believable in a work of fiction because it does reflect reality.
• "The Stairs of Cirith Ungol": shut the book on the bad parts? - Kyriel
  Pardon me for taking a third question from Sam and Frodo's "life as story" discussion, but it's just too great to pass up. Anyway, this is my last question on the topic, and it sums up everything that's gone before. First, the quote:

• I think Gollum sees himself as... - Patty
  a victim..."poor smeagol". Not one of the choices, I know, but that's what I think.

• my thought exactly, Patty - Steve D
  And maybe that's worse than being a villain sometimes. At least a villain is honest about what he is, not blaming other people."I would thou wert cold or hot." -Rev.3:15
• Interesting. - Annael
  I read somewhere that people react in one of three ways in a crisis: About 5 percent will take action, take the lead, start telling other people what to do, organize the rescue efforts, etc. These are the people we call heroes. Very often they are not people who are known as leaders in regular life. They simply see that something must be done, and do it. Another 5 percent will immediately think "how can I turn this to my advantage/what can I get away with here?" These are the people who start looting, pocket the cash on the way out of the burning building, etc. The rest stand around in shock, scream, or start following the lead of someone else. Mobs get started when they follow a looter-type. I think Sam & Frodo are in the first category and Gollum is in the second. Another way of looking at this is a concept I've encountered a few times lately, which divides people into those whose orientation is "service to others" vs. those whose orientation is "service to self." Sam & Frodo are definitely STO while Gollum is STS. About shutting the book: I only do that when I feel helpless AND hopeless. I don't know that I ever shut a book - although I might start skimming - but I do turn off the TV or stop reading a news story when I feel like it's just bad news with no hope and no way I can help. In my own life, I sure wish I could have "shut the book" on a few chapters, but what can you do? You live through it, you do the best you can, you endure. I can't imagine doing it without hope, though. I have to believe that Frodo never gave up hope entirely. Hope for himself, yes, I think he gave that up when he crossed the Anduin. But hope that he MIGHT accomplish the goal, never until the very end. I think that's what kept him going. This is rambly I know . . .
• hmm. Great Q's - Greyhame
  1) I think they are expressing essentially the same philosophy, but Frodo has the immense spiritual weight of the ring directly upon him, which (in my red book) accounts for his less optimistic view. I also think that at this point in the story it is a moral barometer as far as Frodo is concerned. He is sooooo weary.
  2) I guess it's different for everyone. Some people shine in the face of adversity. Some people shrink. And some people see a therapist to avoid shutting the book. But I think the trend in the future will be to face adversity with feet broadly planted. Or so I hope.
  3)Poor Smeagol... I bet he thinks he's the hero trying to save the precious from certain destruction, or Sauronic(is that a word?) domination. Either of which would do him in.
• "The Stairs of Cirith Ungol": Sam waxes philosophical, Part 2 - Kyriel
  Continuing Sam's musings on story and life:

Tolkien uses Sam and Frodo's comments both to make us focus on them as characters IN a tale, AND to reinforce the idea that they're real people caught up in events beyond their control. We realize that we do, even on first reading, have a pretty good idea of how things will turn out -- while they themselves don't. And I don't know about the rest of you, but when I reflect on the fact that I don't want them to know (i.e., don't want to reassure them), I feel a twinge of guilt. That's how real they've become to me. How about the rest of you? Additionally, what kind of tale DO you think they've fallen into, by Sam's definition: "good ending" or otherwise? Bonus points to anyone who cares to discuss other novels (Vonnegut's Breakfast of Champions is one) which force us to meditate on the relationship between author, character, and reader. --Kyriel

• Good ending with a sad twist? Sad ending with a good twist? - Hmpf
  Who can tell? ;-) In any case, it's probably still a better ending than whatever Frodo and Sam are imagining at that point of the story. Or at least than what Frodo is imagining. But I think Sam doesn't have a lot of hope anymore, either. As for feeling guilty: You bet I do! Oh, boy, do I feel guilty. Even more so since I *always* like the dark depressing stuff a lot, in any book or movie or TV show or whatever (just not in Real Life, LOL). I really go for Tragedy, I think. (What does that say about my outlook on life??? ;-)) And I *do* feel for the characters, I pity Frodo no end!, but somehow I'm fascinated with seeing them go through hell. (Yeah, I know. I'm one twisted, evil girl... ;-))
• Deep questions - Steve D
  There's an old Chinese story (retold in "The Tao of Pooh"). There were three men who each tasted from the same barrel of vinegar. One man said it was sour, he was a Confucinist. One said it was bitter, he was a Buddhist. One said it was sweet, he was a Taoist. I wonder how Tolkien would answer. (The difference between sour and bitter is that Confucius, like most Jews, Christians, and Moslems, think the world started out good and then went bad; while Buddhists, like Hindus, think that the world was as a place of suffering and imperfection from the beginning.)
• Endings and Allegory. - Inferno
  I don't feel like typing out two posts for this, so I'll address Greyhame's question of allegory too. I think that by and large, this is a sad ending. I can't recall the exact quote, but the last line of Quenta Silmarillion (in the Silmarillion) reads something like: "Here ends Quenta Silmarillion. If it has passed from beauty into sorrow, that was ever the fate of Arda Marred." It seems that for Middle-Earth at least, the taint of Morgoth will not only never be fully erased, but it continues to spread itself in other ways. Maybe not evil, but in sorrow and loss. Had Lord of the Rings maintained a Star Wars style ending, (ending the story with the coronation of Aragorn, and the wedding of Aragorn and Arwen) the story could be considered a happy 'fairy-tale' ending. As written, the story contains too many elements of beauty fading into sorrow, despite the many happy things that occur in the tale. I think that one of the real disappointments for Sam is the lack of regard that Frodo has in the Shire. Sam, Merry, and Pippin are all considered great heroes in their homeland, but Frodo isn't. For Sam, who not only witnessed all the events, but reveres Frodo to begin with, this has to be a hard blow-- perhaps the hardest of all. As for the role of allegory, in the Introduction to Lord of the Rings, Tolkien states that he destests allegory in all forms, and refutes the belief many held that this tale was an allegory of WWII. He continues with a comment about either symbols or metaphor, and how they have different meaning than allegory. The issue here (at least in Greyhame's post) seems to be one of definition. Allegory is where a particular figure or symbol in the story means one thing, and one thing only. The way Tolkien liked to use symbols, they could mean many different things. This is probably part of his Catholic background. Much of Catholic worship is symbolic-- the icons and rituals all have meaning, but they represent more than just one specific idea or concept. As an example: Catholics baptize their infants by sprinkling them with water. I'm not positive, but I think they use a specific type of brush to do it with. Regardless, the sprinkling with water represents several things. To name just a few, it can represent (by its falling from the priest to the infant) the grace of God descending from God to Man. The water represents a cleansing of original sin, make the infant pure as the water is pure. The water can also represent the rainfall, reminding one of the great creations of God. Whether these are all things that are considered proper symbols in Catholicism I don't know. (not being Catholic) The point is however, that Tolkien probably wouldn't object to someone seeing parallels between events in WWII and events in Lord of the Rings (Sauron fighting on 3 fronts, like Hitler did for example), while he strenuously objects to someone trying to cram every aspect of Lord of the Rings into something that happened in WWII. And if someone sees something in Lord of the Rings that resembles a point from somewhere else in that person's experience, (for example, the dragon that destroys the town in Beowulf is angered because a gold cup is stolen from his treasure hoarde-- sound familiar?) that is also well and good. This could be why he never pins down if Balrogs have wings, or who exactly Bombadil is, or any number of other things. The reader needs to have the freedom to relate these to his or her own experience, not to establish hard 'facts' about a world that never really existed outside of the heads of the writer and readers. Inferno.
• Thank you - Greyhame
  for helping to clear my cloudy mind. But before I posted, I looked up "allegory" in my Dictionary just to be sure. "The expression by means of symbolic fictional characters and actions of truths or generalizations about human existence."
  I'm not sure with which part of this definition Tolkien would be uncomfortable, but perhaps it would be the "symbolic fictional characters". I assume he didn't create any of his characters as "symbols". But the whole narrative serves as an allegory for life; life in all its forms. Can allegory be so broad? Or is it the idea of LOTR as an allegory for WW2 which irked him?
• Good and sad ending. - septembrist
  One of the brilliant aspects of LOTR is its bittersweet ending primarily because it is how many of our ordinary or extraordinary adventures end.
  An obvious example is graduation from high school. We are happy to graduate and move on but saddened knowing that we will no longer be with our school friends or we may never see them again.
  Or again, war veterans leave their buddies at war's end and may never see them again.
  Thus, the ending of LOTR speaks so powerfully to us because it is involves "real life" partings and changes.
• Avoiding the bonus points, but taking up the question. - Frodo Hoy
  It is mostly a good and happy story, but....... My daughter just finished reading LOTR (her first time) last evening. I came in from shovelling and saw that she had finished the story. I looked at her and the first words out of my mouth were, "Sad ending, huh?" She agreed. So, it is a happy story in the sense that the Ring is destroyed and the hobbits return to their homeland. But, as Aragorn says within the tale, "It is a fair tale, though it is sad, as are all the tales of Middle-earth, and yet it may lift up your hearts." The element of bittersweet is not lacking throughout most of the strains of this wonderful story. I also agree that Sam and Frodo should be left in doubt about the outcome of their venture.
• The first time I ever - Greyhame
  read LOTR, I had no idea how it would end. I didn't know if Sam would die saving Frodo, or if some other unforseen event would destroy the ring. Or if they would ultimately fail in their task thus making a resolution which was indefinite and blurred. I also haven't come to the point in my re-reading of the books (three times in 15 years) where I feel any personal guilt or desire for the characters to act in any way. I simply get caught up in the narrative and float along like a piece of plankton. Regarding your second question, I don't know. I suppose by Sam's estimation, they have landed in a tale with a sad ending. His dear friend Frodo proves to be permanently scarred by their quest. The elves depart and fade from memory. And even though the Shire recuperates, if is itself tainted. But personally, I think that the destruction of the ring, Sauron's demise and the restoration of the line of Elendil, bringing peace and prosperity makes up for the afore mentioned hardships. I suppose it is a bitter-sweet ending. On to another related subject...allegory. I was most disappointed when I first came here and read repeatedly in people's posts that Tolkien had no intention of writing an allegorical story. Perhaps he didn't mean to write one, but I hope he wouldn't mind if I interpret it as such. The quote you cited and indeed Sam and Frodo's journey in general seem to be making a deeper point about life. To start with, one must suppose that life is a journey, then the relevant associations can be made. What is success? Why does one continue? Why does one surrender? What is the nature of power? What is the nature of wisdom? What is the nature of friendship? What is the nature of fate (if fate is what you'd call it;-).
  I suppose it is the purpose of all great art to transfigure a simple (or complex) narrative into something with existential weight and implications. Perhaps that's why I'm so hung up on Bombadil. There are enormous implications with his little cameo in this great power-struggle. As for your bonus quetion...It is funny that you bring up Vonnegut because he is a science-fiction/satirist who perfectly balances his world of fiction with poignant references to our daily life. I love Vonnegut and would add to Breakfast of Champions: Deadeye Dick, Player Piano, God Bless you Mr. Rosewater.
  I would also add Hesse's "Steppenwolf", Kafka's "The Castle" Nietzche's "Zarathustra" and Joyce's "Ulysses". But the list wouldn't stop there... I've still got alot of reading to do, but I would appreciate it if someone could clarify this business of allegory and Tolkien.
• "The Stairs of Cirith Ungol": Sam waxes philosophical, Part I - Kyriel
  Quote from Sam: "The brave things in the old tales and songs, Mr. Frodo: adventures, as I used to call them. I used to think that they were things the wonderful folk of the stories went out and looked for, because they wanted them, because they wre exciting and life was a bit dull, a kind of a sport, as you might say. But that's not the way of it with the tales that really mattered, or the ones that stay in the mind. Folk seem to have been just landed in them, usually -- their paths wre laid that way, as you put it. But I expect they had lots of chances, like us, of turning back, only they didn't." Do you agree with Sam's idea that the really great tales are the ones whose heroes and heroines are just ordinary folk who fall into adventure by accident? Do you think Tolkien himself agrees with this idea (check, for instance, the characters of the Silmarillion)? Which kind of tales do you prefer, and why? --Kyriel
• I think Tolkien probably thought that both kind of tales had - Hmpf
  their own legitimation. The Silmarillion features 'noble' people, and LotR features mostly 'ordinary' people. Considering that Tolkien (presumably) liked the Sil a bit better than LotR - that it came closer to his ideal, LotR being too novelistic for a 'real' epic - I think Tolkien had a 'weak spot' ;-) for the kind of awe evoked by the majesty and glory of epics of the traditional kind. Most early epics do *not* tell the story of ordinary folks, but rather those of kings, founders of cities or states, great warriors etc. These epics have their roots in history almost as much or maybe more than in the urge to 'tell a story'. They *became* stories, but they probably started out as history. So, this is the kind of feel, I assume, that Tolkien wanted to evoke in readers of the Sil - that they were, in a way, witnessing history, or at least perceiving echoes of history. That's also where the awe you can feel when reading ancient epics or the Sil comes from, IMO - from feeling that 'this was real', even if it's become distorted by time. There's little to identify with in tales like that, except for History (capitalization intended), of which we, the readers are a part just as the one who composed the epic was. We're still in the same story. So, in a way, maybe, *we* are the heroes when reading an ancient epic... (Uhm... very weird thoughts here, Hmpf...) In a more novelistic tale, like LotR, however, we usually look for a person (or several) as an emotional anchor. Since the story is obviously fictional (not historical), we don't get that sense of 'we're still in the same story' that Sam describes. We are (unfortunately) *not* in the same story as the people in LotR. So we need someone to identify with to become involved in the story. And, since most of us probably consider themselves 'ordinary people' (as opposed to kings and such ;-)), we identify with who ressembles us - the ordinary people in the tale. Mostly. There are exceptions to every rule, and personal preferences. I, for one, almost always go for the character who changes the most radically, who has the greatest spiritual or psychological journey. In LotR that is, for me, Frodo, who starts out as a hobbit and ends up close to being elvish. He's an 'ordinary' guy compared to Gandalf or Aragorn, at least in the beginning, but he changes and in the end is definitely *not* 'ordinary' anymore.
• Sam's the man! :) - Steve D
• I absolutely agree. - Nenya
  Tales of the gods are all well and good, but what made the gods interesting were their foibles and human failings, not their perfection nor greatness. The suspense comes not from the heights that have been climbed, but in the distance one can fall, if you catch my drift. The guy who hunts adventures out is an egoist; the guy who falls smack in the dab of a situation he barely comprehends and still makes good is a hero.
• A tale has the most effect when I care - Kimi
  about the people within it. It's easier to empathise with the reluctant hero like Frodo, and the hobbits are well drawn as supposedly "ordinary" folk. High and remote heroes I can admire from a distance, but I'm less likely to love and weep over them. LOTR is certainly told from the view of such "ordinary" folk, which is part of its charm. The Silmarillion tends to have "great" folk as the heroes, though I don't think they tend to go out looking for adventures because things got dull! I think the tales I like most are the ones where we're aware of the heroes' "human" (in a very broad sense) vulnerability.
• Zelazny - Gorel
  One of the things I've always enjoyed about Zelazny is that it's practically guaranteed that at some point in every one of his books, his main character will be beaten into unconsciousness. I know it's a flippant example, but me and my friends used to laugh about this all the time. He may have superhuman characters like Corwin, but they all end up on the losing side of a fight at some point. That makes me root for them even more. It also reminds me of Yojimbo.
• We can identify with the common man/woman hero. - septembrist
  That is what can make such stories so involving. We can imagine ourselves in such positions and wonder if we could do the same things.

• Hitchcock used the average guy a lot in his films... - dudalb
  His hero being an average guy who gets caught up in a dangerous intrigue...likes James Stewart in "Vertigo" or "The Man Who Knew Too Much" or Cary Grant in "North by Northwest". Tolkien gave us both a noble hero (Aragorn) and the average man in his hobbits.
• reluctant hero - Gorel
  I was just talking to Mistress Gorel about this, who is reading LOTR for the first time. Frodo tries to give the Ring away to no less than three different people; Gandalf, Aragorn and Galadriel. But he only offers it to people he thinks are wiser or more appropriate for the task than he is, and accepts the burden when they refuse. It's a sign of the humility that actually makes him the best choice for Ringbearer. He says outright to Gandalf, "I wish it need not have happened in my time." Sam's passage also makes a nice contrast between Gandalf and the other Istari, none of whom asked for their mission to Middle-earth. Only Gandalf stuck with his task all the way through, hiding his true power even from people who hated him, and if he hadn't Sauron would have had the Ring already. Boromir is one heroic character who seems to relish glory, and even snatches the task of searching for Imladris from his brother, and he fails when faced with the Ring.
• Often the case - Ufthak
  Although in the case of Feanor swearing to oppose Morgoth, that has to go down as deliberately seeking "excitement". Maybe he thought it was what he had to do, but still, that's not a course likely to lead to comfortable days with the grandchildren
• I'm not sure which I prefer - Aelric
  I think if you compare the tale of Frodo and Sam to that of those in the Silmarillion, despite the motives of those involved, they are all noble quests. There are people doing great deeds, no matter what faction of life they came from. I think Sam is finally realising that he is one of those people. What an emotion that must've created! No less noble is the quest of Frodo and Sam to that of say Earendil. That is one of my favorite parts in all of the books, Kyriel. Thanks for openning it up to discussion. : )
• I love this passage! Yes, I think it expresses - Frodo Hoy
  a sentiment held by Tolkien and is consistent with the gist of most of his tales of Middle-earth. It is certainly the case with the majority of the major players in LOTR, as well as with Bilbo, the ultimate reluctant hero in The Hobbit. Even in The Silmarillion, most of the great events happen not because some hero looked for an adventure, but because the times necessitated heroic action - though the person(s) involved would seldom have been acting with a mind to what was heroic, just to what was needed to be an overcomer.
• "The Stairs of Cirith Ungol": Frodo and the Witch King - Kyriel
  As he is leading his troops out of Minas Morgul, the Witch King senses the Ring and pauses. Frodo feels a strong pressure to put it on, and Tolkien says

• interesting... - Gagarin
  As you suggest, I thinK it is delusions of grandeur, the terrible influence of the ring. Like when Frodo is at the end of the mission and decides to take the ring for him, despite the mission and Sauron, who would kill him as a bug. Un encuentro casual, como decimos en la Tierra Media.

• I think mainly - Aiya
  Frodo realized (probably subconsciously) that for him to be able to overcome the Witch King he would have to actually claim the ring- something he was not yet prepared to do.
• It doesn't really have to do with proximity to Mt. Doom - Frodo Hoy
  but more to do with the fact of the corrupting influence of the Ring on Frodo. When Frodo asked Galadriel a question about usage of the Ring, she told him not to try, because it would destroy him. "Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others," she told him. Okay, that begs the question - in exacting a promise of servitude from Gollum and threatening by the power of the Ring dire consequences upon Gollum if he should break his oath, was Frodo flexing his dominating muscles, so to speak? Would he ever have had the strength to dominate the Lord of the Nazgul? I think the fact that he had a will that could so long resist the strength of temptation that the Ring exerted on him is evidence (albeit, not conclusive) that he had a strength of will, if he had so chosen and had trained himself for it, to resist and dominate the Witch King. Therefore, Tolkien's comment about "not yet". The hobbits surprised all with their strength of will - there was inner power to accomplish the "yet" of the "not yet". Frodo did not follow that path (thankfully), so the question will not really be answered. And in not choosing that path, he didn't really have the strength to resist/dominate even so much a lesser figure such as Gollum at the end. Whether he really had it in him to learn to dominate the Witch King or not, Frodo had the presence of mind to realize that he was not able to wield the Ring at that point in time and gain the victory. That itself shows a certain powerful inner strength. A lesser mind or will would have yielded to the urgent demand of the Ring at that point in time. Frodo resisted and "won" that battle. Most other beings in Middle-earth would have succumbed to the power of the Ring long before this.
• Domination - Gorel
  When Frodo asked Galadriel a question about usage of the Ring, she told him not to try, because it would destroy him. "Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others," she told him. I think Frodo's relationship with Gollum is in effect the traning of his will to the domination of others. (I think this was discussed earlier so sorry if I repeat anyone) Even though Frodo is Sam's master, he treats him with kindness and earns his respect, so he's never really in a position to dominate him. I don't think Galadriel was talking about a skill of sorts, so much as a certain perspective on the world, a way of viewing relationships, and the ego to back it up. Sauron seems to have split the world into three categories: his slaves, those who will be his slaves, and those his slaves will destroy. The Ring's main power is to dominate, making it the Ultimate Machine, as Tolkien put it, but that also makes domination its main source of corruption. It shows Tolkien's insight into the human spirit that Frodo, like Boromir, is corrupted by the Ring because he is desperate to do good. Just as the Wise predicted, attempting to use the Enemy's weapon against him is doomed. By resorting to the Ring to dominate Gollum, Frodo starts to become accustomed to the role of master. The "not yet" in the passage quoted by Kyriel to me is a sign that Frodo has already started to see himself not only as the Ringbearer, but as the Lord of the Ring, whether he realizes it or not.
• Hmmm - Aelric
  I think that Frodo is as wise as Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel have said he is. He is finally realising that, IF he trained his will unto the domination of others, he would in time be able to weild it. I think the RIng places this thought in his mind, as it always has: temptation to use the Ring. However, I think Frodo is actually seeing that he could on time do the very things the Ring shows him in his mind.
• Yes, that is basically what I think as well... - Chade
  I don't se the "- not yet." part as he could do it if he was closer to Mnt Doom, but he thinks that he could eventually do it later in time. And a longer time than it takes for him to go to the crack and toss it in.
  And as most say here I think the ring "tells" him that he can use it if he only tries... But ofcourse he is wiser than to do that at that point. ---
  Lily Sloane: Borg? Sounds Swedish.
  [After having seen the Borg]
  Lily Sloane: Definitely not Swedish.

· Two interpretations. - Inferno
Maybe both are valid. First, I think that this is an example of the temptations of the Ring. It's telling Frodo that if he will claim it for himself, that he would be able to learn to use its powers, and eventually be able to gain enough control to rule over the Witch-King, as the true master of the Ring would be able to do. Secondly, I think this is an indication that Frodo has been listening to the advice and reactions of Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond, etc., about using the Ring-- it does have great power, but only if one wants to become like Sauron himself. He realizes that his ability to resist the Ring is weakening as he approaches Orodruin, and his desires to accomplish the task, though fading, still prevent him from taking the Ring for his own in a manner that would grant unto him the necessary power. Inferno.
· Yeah. What he said. - Annael
well put, Inferno.
· Perhaps Tolkien... - septembrist
...envisioned a showdown between Frodo and WK at the end of the books and left himself some wiggle room to allow for Frodo's victory. More probable is that the Ring is exerting its influence and causing Frodo to think that he can take the WK at a later time.

• Book IV, Chap. 8, "The Stairs of Cirith Ungol" -- pick a Morgul, any Morgul - Kyriel
  After two weeks' holiday hiatus, I am pleased to kick the chapter discussions back into high gear with "The Stairs of Cirith Ungol." For my first question, I thought I'd take a cue from Idril and share some artwork with you all. IMO, Minas Morgul is one of the most fascinating places in Middle-earth that we DON'T get to see up close. All we have are a few pages of extremely creepy description. I'm still on the lookout for the perfect painting of Minas Morgul, but until I find it, I guess I'll have to make do with the pics below. Tell me what you think: which artist, if any, really captures the essence of the place? If you could paint (or commission, for you non-artists) your own picture of Minas Morgul, how would it look? The thumbnails link to Rolozo Tolkien's site. Click on any of them to view the full-sized image in a new browser window.
  by Alan Lee by Rob Alexander by Roger Garland
• Take a look at the Steve Hickman poster - Ron Austin
  Steve Hickman has a set of five Tolkien posters with a view of Minas Morgul
  "The Dreaded Vale" Compare it with the view of Minas Tirith on "The Citadel at Sunrise" go to http://www.fairfaxprints.com/tolkien.html to find them
• OMG! - Kyriel
  Sorry, it's not the "Dread Vale" that made my jaw drop; it's the lower-right pic of Bilbo and Smaug. I used to have that very same poster, back when I was about 10 or so (i.e., over 20 years ago). I think I might have ordered it from a catalog at school or something. I had totally forgotten about that poster and have no idea what happened to it, but I just got the most incredible, beautiful rush of nostalgia! :-) --Kyriel
• Alexander's - Ufthak
  Almosrt perfectly captures the shape of the place for me, if maybe a little too sprawling. But in my head, for some reason I had an image of it as made out of pale stone. Is there something in the book that gave me this subliminal message? (I don't have it in front of me)
• You're right about the paleness - Kyriel
  It was originally named Minas Ithil because it "imprisoned" the light of the moon, and Tolkien describes it now as having a pale corpse-light. --Kyriel

• I see it as dark, but with a ghostly glow - Annael
  I don't think of it has having any red at all. The only red they saw was the dull glow from Mt. Doom over the mountains. If I could paint it, everything would be dead black with areas of paleness - the river, the bridge, the road, the windows of the tower, the rotting plants in the fields. But I have no idea how to indicate that sickly glow that does not illuminate.
• Gloom and doom - Greyhame
  Thanks for bringing those to bear on the discussion, but I'd have to agree with everyone else. The painting by Lee is incomplete. I can't see enough of Minas Morgul to really judge. The painting by Alexander is dark and gloomy, but misses the terror of Morgul. Roger Garland's drawing or painting looks IMHO decidedly un-Nazgul and UN-Numenorean. Minas Morgul should balance those two aspects. I could imagine that John Howe could do that, but I haven't seen his Morgul, so I couldn't really say. I have a very precise image/feeling in my mind for Minas Morgul. If I had a scanner, I'd try to paint it and contribute more concretely. But I don't ;-)
  I'll see if I can dig up some expressionistic art examples which depict my impression of Minas Morgul.
• John Howe1s Minas Morgul? - Alnilam

• Barad-Dur, + 2towers - Arathorn
  Dark Tower, so Barad-Dur. Too big to be Minas Morgul imho.
  About the 2 Towers, Tolien himseld disliked the tile as it was misleading. In fact he wrote in some letter he wasn't sure which towers were referenced there. Could be the twin towers of Minas Morugul and Minas Tirith, Barad-Dur and Orthanc. Orthanc and Minas Morgul, or Cirith Ungol. Nothing is fixed it seems. his original title was Treason of Isengard, but as it referred only to book 3, I think he thought another title should be made. ____________________________________
• I've got that copy! - Ufthak
  I always imagined though, due to the sheer size of the tower itself, that it must be Barad-Dur. I've never been entirely sure which two towers the book referred to (Morgul, Tirith, Orthanc or Barad-Dur, take your pick), so i could be wrong.
  But looking at the size of it, I wold say iot's the Dark Tower itself.

• Yes, I'm 90% sure it IS Barad-Dur and not Minas Morgul - Kyriel
  That painting appeared in the 1991 Tolkien calendar (all illustrations by Howe), where I believe it was titled "The Dark Tower." At least, that's the name given for it on the Rolozo site, and Rolozo does try to give all his pics their official names. Anyway, it is a wonderfully creepy pic and DOES make me wonder what Howe would do with Minas Morgul...or Nasmith, for that matter. --Kyriel
• well, my search was fruitless - Greyhame
  except for finding a representation of Minas morgul's terror... please cut and paste (I can't work out how to get the link to appear here) http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/donahue/169/scream_lithograph.jpg and I found one for Saruman:
  http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/durer/engravings/st-jerome.jpg and Lastly... one for Mordor!
  http://www.artchive.com/artchive/ftptoc/bosch_ext.html
• Greyhame - Gorel
  May I add your suggestions to this artist wish list? I won't be offended in the least if you'd prefer I didn't. Someone also suggested Bosch for Mordor, maybe it was you. The other two seem to be Albrecht Durer and Edvard Munch?

• By all means yes. - Greyhame
  The black and white lithograph from Munch was the feeling of terror from Minas Morgul. The copperplate etching(?) from Durer was Saruman at work.

  The Bosch link didn't work properly, but it was the right panel from Hell. I know that Mordor isn't hell, but the belching flames and strange torturous goings on made me think of Melkor's attempts to create trolls, orcs, and Balrogs. Just my wild imagination... go figure. I will continue to casually look for a fitting picture of Minas Morgul.

• I'm not Greyhame, but... - Ufthak
  I'm not sure about Bosch for Mordor (I assume you're talking Heironymous Bosch?). He's good at hellish pictures yes, loads of weird stuff, but Mordor isn't Hell. Mordoor is just dead, dry and in most parts, very regimented. Mordor is a control freak's dream gone mad.
• None completely fit the bill. - septembrist
  I like Garland's architecture but overall it is too light. It is almost as if he painted Minas Ithil.
  Alexander's work has too much activity with lightning and clouds and such.
  Lee captures the deadness of MM but it does look like a ruin which it is not (at least in my mind). Maybe a morphing of Lee's deadness and Garland's architecture.
• I think that Garland would be better at - Patty
  more wholesome art--he doesn't do decay and ruin believably, this piece, if lightened up a bit, would look better as Minas Tirith (loosing the industrial elements, of course.)
  I've often mentioned that Lee is my least favorite of the top illustrators because contrary to popular sentiment I do NOT like that washed out, indistinct look his paintings have--the watercolor medium. However, he has captured the look in this particular painting--if it could be crossed with the other pic ( I like the smoke element) and give it a greater impact ( strangely enough NOT at odds with the word "decay") it would be closer to my vision.
• I agree with Gorel, they're not scary enough. - Kimi
  Minas Morgul is a place of horror and decay. I'm vague about just how I'd like to see it illustrated, but I'd know it if I saw it! I think I like the Alan Lee picture best, as it's pale (as Minas Morgul should be). It looks more a romantic ruin than a place of death and decay, though. I really don't like that Garland painting. To me it looks more comical than frightening.
• Not scary enough - Gorel

Inferno
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Apr262009,4:10am

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Lord of the Rings : Book 4, Chapter 9
Shelob's Lair
A Discussion Led by Kimi

• Book IV, Chapter 9. Summary. - Kimi
  Frodo and Sam enter the foul-smelling tunnel that is Shelob's Lair. Within, the darkness seems almost palpable. Shelob's malice permeates this place as thoroughly as do her webs. Frodo is the stronger of the hobbits here; perhaps his clearer perception of things evil gives him a clearer sense of the danger around him, and helps him focus his own great strength of will to fight against Shelob's spells of fear and darkness. As Shelob draws near them, Sam is reminded of the Lady's gift. This reminder might come simply from his train of thought travelling from memories of Tom Bombadil, who saved them from danger before, to the powerful Lady of the Golden Wood who bestowed great gifts; or it may be a nudge from Eru. Frodo wields the star-glass, crying aloud the Elvish hymn to Eärendil as he does so. He's not consciously aware of the meaning of the words, but he may have heard them at Rivendell, or read them in Elvish writings. Or perhaps the words come from the glass itself, as part of the "spell" of its making. Shelob is not immediately daunted by the star-glass, and she advances on them. But Frodo musters his will and courage, and the small hobbit from the Shire advances on the monster, his strength of will mirrored in the glittering glass, and Shelob retreats, apparently cowed. The Elven-blade, Sting, cuts through Shelob's web, and the hobbits escape from her tunnel. But Frodo is wild with relief, and abandons caution to rush heedlessly into the open. Perhaps the fact that he has passed his Elven-blade and the star-glass to Sam has blunted his perceptions. And now we see Shelob herself. Given the reaction of many of us to spiders, Tolkien chose well in making Shelob a giant spider. Just what she is is still something of an enigma: she's a far lesser creature than her foremother Ungoliant, and seems to be of limited intelligence and even more limited imagination. And yet she seems able to cast spells, and she was able to communicate with Gollum in some way that's not described. Gollum "worshipped" her; and the fact that Tolkien chose a word with religious connotations seems to signify something beyond awe or admiration. Gollum seems at the same time to have hated her; though Gollum hates most beings he has had to deal with, and has fantasies of wreaking his revenge on them all. Sam sees Shelob; Frodo, still running heedlessly, does not. But before Sam can warn Frodo, he is attacked by Gollum, who is going to begin his grand plans for revenge with Sam. Sam fights Gollum off, begins to pursue him, then remembers Frodo's peril. He rushes wildly after Frodo, but at chapter's end we are told that Sam is too late; that Gollum's plot has succeeded. Thank you all for some truly wonderful discussions this week. It's much too difficult to choose a post of the week, so laurel wreaths all round! (Fortunately I have a lot of bay trees.)

• Wonderful. Thanks Kimi...anymore it seems... - Patty
  that I can only play catch up on the weekends, and then everyone has said what I would want to say. But I appreciate these questions and chapter discussions! Nice job!
• Excellent analysis Kimi - Narya
  I completely agree, 100%, about Tolkien's brilliance in choosing a spider as the obstacle. I'd have run shrieking if Shelob had been one tenth the size! Even the wise cannot see all ends.

• I had a really good time with this chapter, Kimi. - Nenya
  I'm looing forward to the next chapter you take on. Thanks for a great week.
• Nice job with this chapter, Kimi!! - Frodo Gardner
• Thanks, Kimi - Gorel
  I'm still thinking about your last question. It makes me think of Gollum's brush with redemption. Revenge can be a terrible temptation. Which reminds me of Saruman and Grima in the Scouring. Lots ot think about still!
• Thanks Kimi - Steve D
• Book IV, Chapter 9. Part 8: Sméagol's revenge - Kimi
  "And when we've got it safe, then She'll know it, O yes, then we'll pay Her back, my precious. Then we'll pay everyone back!" What might Sméagol want to pay Shelob back for? What form might his vengeance take? Who else might feel his imagined wrath?
• I think Gollum's a leetle delusional here... - Ufthak
  I remember him tlaking to himself - "Gollum the Great! THE Gollum!" etc, not bearing in mind that fact that he'd had the Ring for centuries and had just been small, thin, miserable and occasionally invisible.
  There would be no revenge. Even invisible, the only thing Gollum could do to Shelob would be steal some of her food. Gollum is just caught up in Ring-lust (as when Sam imagines making the whole orld a garden), as there is no real way he could achieve his vengance.

• I agree. - Steve D
• Pretty much everyone - Dmitri Ravinoff
  The Baggins family and Sam for sure. Aragorn for capturing him. Any elves he could get his hands on for holding him captive. Gandalf, but it wouldn't work for burning him (or rather, putting the fear of fire in him, take that as you list). Shelob for scaring the daylights out of him, and also because he is oh so trecherous. I don't think that he would go after Sauron for torturing him because Gollum was so scared of him earlier, but who knows what the power of the ring would do to his mind. If I missed anyone else that made him mad along the way please forgive me, there were a lot (Oh yeah, Faramir, Angborn in Henneth Annun).
• Book IV, Chapter 9. Part 7: Her Ladyship - Kimi
  "Already, years before, Gollum had beheld her, Sméagol who pried into all dark holes, and in past days he had bowed and worshipped her, and the darkness of her evil will walked through all the ways of his weariness beside him, cutting him off from light and from regret." Why would Gollum have worshipped Shelob? And how much power might she have had over him?
• I think Gollum worshipped power. - Nenya
  Not the power Sauron aspired to, of course. I think that might have been beyond Smeagol's imagination. But the kind of power Shelob had was the kind of power Gollum would have wanted for himself. Respect (grudging or otherwise) from the orcs. Food brought to him every so often (as prisoners were occasionally brought to Shelob). A nice safe bolt hole, with no one threatening or questioning or getting in the way of such pleasures as might be found. Shelob had all the things that Gollum aspired to. If worship means extreme admiration, then Gollum would have worshipped her for that. Shelob's power over Gollum would have been directly proportional to how much she threatened him. Shelob was not a force to be reasoned with, nor trifled with lightly. For that reason, and for the fact that she "owned" some of the passageways that Gollum might otherwise have used freely to traverse unseen, she would have had significant power over him.
• interesting quote, Kimi - Steve D
  It certainly makes it sound like Shelob is a spiritual being, not just an animal.
• Awe - Gorel
  I assume that Gollum must have seen something he admired in Shelob, even someone he would want to be in a way. Gollum used to lurk in caves, hating the light and hunting orcs like she does, but he was miserable and afraid. Shelob has nothing to fear, and consumes what she wants without hiding. He must have been in awe of her. Even with the Ring Gollum had to pick off lone stragglers. Shelob is incredibly powerful, and I think Gollum would have looked up to her the way a shyer boy might look up to the school bully and become his toady. For all his malice, Gollum is a weak and small creature, and he seems to enjoy the idea of being her ally. Maybe he even allowed himself to feel clever in exploiting her for his own ends.
• I think he worshipped her out of nessicity - Dmitri Ravinoff
  I don't think it was much of a choice. He probably blundered into her lair by accident and then did his sniviling little apology deal. She probably relented because he promised her fresh meat, i.e. man, or anyone else he could trick into going up there. Whether he knew he would be guiding Sam and Frodo up there seems unlikely, but possible. She probably just realized that he wouldn't taste very good, and so she let him go after he apologized and promised her fresh meat.
• I never worked out how Gollum could communicate with Shelob - Ufthak
• Book IV, Chapter 9. Part 6: "Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! - Kimi
  He [Frodo] cried, and knew not what he had spoken; for it seemed that another voice spoke through his, clear, untroubled by the foul air of the pit." Whose voice might it have been? Where did these words come from?
• We've assumed in prior discussions that greater powers were watching the periphery. - Nenya
  Although Ilúvatar and the Ainur could not become directly involved in these events as they unfolded, surely they took an interest. I remember discussing in an earlier chapter the possibility that Frodo was being tested by higher powers to determine if he was worthy of being the ringbearer (sorry, I forget the exact context of that discussion right now). Since these words were part of a Quenya poem, and since Bilbo had been actively collecting bits and pieces of Elven lore, it is entirely possible that Frodo had seen this poem previously and had the fragment buried in his subconscience. At this critical moment, with the fragment of poetry buried in his mind and the phial in his hand, it might have been possible for Ilúvatar himself to "tweak" the balance and help the words come to Frodo's lips. I'd like to think that, though Ilúvatar wasn't able to directly "meddle" in the affairs of Middle Earth he still took an interest, and indeed played some small role.
• I can't help thinking we're over-examining simple plot devices here - Ufthak
  To be honest, it is more interesting to say that someone else seemed to cry out through Frodo, rather than Frodo decided on a choice of elvish words to purposefully confuse and frighten Shelob, isn't it?
  I dunno, maybe I'm just cynical (well, I AM cynical). But surely not EVERYTHING that Tolkein wrote has a deeper mweaning?
• I don't know about *everything*, but... - Hmpf
  it is a fact that Tolkien spent many, many years writing LotR, so I'm willing to bet that *most* details do have a special meaning, and especially 'meaningful' details (LOL), that is, details that seem to carry some import, like the one quoted by Kimi here. As to what it might mean, though, I'm stumped. Sorry ;-)
• Hehehe! Good question! - Aelric
  One I have thought about but have not come up with a good answer besides that the voice comes from the Valar. There is another instance where this happens as well, when Frodo has his dream. I have no clue.
• I'll take a stab in the dark here. =) - Frodo Hoy
  The words are obviously of Elvish origin. The phial in Frodo's hand is the gift of an elf, containing the light of the star most beloved of the elves. So whose elvish voice is it? Is it identifiable with a single individual, or is it the virtue of the phial that influences him, much as the Ring has influenced him by its own power? I'm guessing the phial itself is the source, not an individual "channeling" through Frodo at the moment. Okay, now which of you scholars out there will give us the translation of those words? I have only a guess based on limited data. Earendil is the name of the evening star. Elen- is a root meaning star. Elenion may be, therefore, a word meaning "Evening Star." Ancalime is a name given to a beautiful girl in the Numenorean line. I didn't find a translation of the name, but I think it refers to her beauty, so it probably means "beautiful'. Aiya, I'm guessing (and the Aiya on our message boards is going to slam me for being wrong!), means something like "Look at" or "Behold'. So my guess at the meaning of the phrase is "Behold Earendil, the beautiful evening star!" or "Behold THE LIGHT of Earendil, etc." So, when Idril C. or Gorel or another of our scholars comes along, I hope I guessed close to the correct translation.
• *eep* that's my name :) - Aiya
  Technically, according to my dictionary anyway, Aiya means behold (with an !). So I don't have to slam you for being wrong :) As to the original question- I've always thought of Frodo as having an elvish quality to him anyway, that has been enhanced by the phial. I think Frodo has depths to him that even he doesn't realize. He pay have heard those words before, or those might have been among the ones he studied, but I think that they (forgive me for this phrase) just sort of popped out of him when he wasn't expecting it. I don't think he could do it again if he was actually trying to. A bit like the fact I can speak spanish better when I'm not thinking and phrases just come out than when I'm actually thinking on it.
• I think that you are on the right track here - Blue Wizard
  The phrase Frodo utters is translated "Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars", and is a fragment of a longer poem in Quenya. The light of Eärendil's star is captured in the phial amid the water of Galadriel's mirror. I have always assumed that Galadriel herself made it, although I suppose that it is possible that someone like Celebrimbor actually make it. In either case, since elven "magic" in Tolkien seems to be inevitably tied up in words or song, it seems to me logical that the recitation of the poem which Frodo quotes may have been integral in the making of the Phial. Now this is not to say that the words simply came to Frodo unbidden from some external source (as seems to have been the case in some other instances). He was told by Galadriel what the Phial was, and so he knows that it is the captured light of the star. He is also likely to be familiar with the poem as well, as he was a scholar of Elven culture. So, it may well be that, at a quite conscious level, he simply chooses to recite these very appropriate words. But, it may also be the case that, in reciting this passage, the "magic" of the Phial's maker is being echoed by him, and that voice, whether Galadrial or Celembrimbor or someone else, is also speaking through the Phial, in which it is bound.

• It seems strange - Gorel
  It seems strange that Tolkien never elaborated on the origins of the phial, at least in a passage that would have ended up in Unfinished Tales. I just mean that it seems like exactly the kind of thing he was obsessive about tracing back through his history/mythology. That makes me suspect it was made by Galadriel's people at least, like the other gifts the fellowship receives. It would be nice to know its history. I agree with you two, the maker of the phial seems like a likely choice for the origin of the voice. I also wondered if it couldn't be Gandalf, because he suggests more than once that he is watching or influencing Frodo. Maybe he at least inspired him. I was also reminded of Frodo's decision to bear the Ring at the Council: "At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice." Both the incantation of Elbereth and his decision to bear the Ring sound like a communion of sorts to me, in a spiritual sense. Frodo Hoy, Ardalambion is a great site for info on Tolkien's languages.
• no bloody idea - Gagarin
  no, no, it should be "no idea at all" Un encuentro casual, como decimos en la Tierra Media.

• Book IV, Chapter 9. Part 5: "I wish old Tom was near us" - Kimi
  "'It's a trap!' said Sam, and he laid his hand upon the hilt of his sword; and as he did so, he thought of the darkness of the barrow whence it came. 'I wish old Tom was near us now!' he thought. Then, as he stood, darkness about him and a blackness of despair and anger in his heart, it seemed to him that he saw a light: a light in his mind, almost unbearably bright at first, as a sun-ray to the eyes of one long hidden in a windowless pit. Then the light became colour: green, gold, silver, white. Far off, as in a little picture drawn by elven-fingers, he saw the Lady Galadriel standing on the grass in Lórien, and gifts were in her hands." It seems as if Sam's invoking of Tom's name calls up this vision of Galadriel, which then reminds Sam of the Lady's gift. Do you think this is the case? How can this be, given that Tom has set boundaries on himself, and seems content to wield his influence within those boundaries?
• I don't think this has anything to do with Tom, directly. - Hmpf
  However, I think it might be some sort of influence of Good in general - some higher power (?) *is* taking care of Sam, in a way. I don't think any of the Valar or Maiar is doing this, though. I think it is the goodness and strength that is *inherent* in Sam that is called up here, in some way. Whatever higher power has 'planned' Sam's and Frodo's fate has *created* them with sources of strength and goodness inside them that awaken in times of need. This sounds awkward because I try not to write 'God' (though I might write Iluvatar/Eru, of course). I'm not religious, so I'm a little uncomfortable with the idea of higher powers influencing people's lives, but that's nevertheless the way it is in Middle-earth... which brings us back to that old paradox of 'fate/destiny' and 'free will' - both of these factors seem to be at work in Middle-earth... Sorry for the incoherence, I'm tired. Still haven't quite recovered from the Tolkienfest last weekend... :-)
• Hey- how was that? - Aiya
  The Tolkienfest I mean. I haven't had a chance to look in on this site recently.
• I'm glad he's not! - Gorel
  When I read it, I don't see the thought of Tom as causing the vision, other than jogging Sam's tired and panicy memory back to helpful friends. Thank goodness Tom couldn't twinkle in and save them from this one. Talk about spoiling the mood! The phrase, "as in a little picture drawn by elven-fingers", is about the closest I can think of Tolkien having come to a precious portrayal of elven things. Maybe it's fitting for the delicate phial from Lorien. Can anyone think of a good painting of the phial? I picture a filigree of gold and silver with leaf motifs, wrapped around a mutli-sided, frosted glass tube. How do you pciture it?
• The phial - Ufthak
  This is not related to anything in the books, but my imagined picture of the phial is that of the classic diamond, sort of a pyramid with another pyramid upside down on the bottom (sorry, I rarely make much sense after midnight).
  No gold, silver or any other fancy stuff. Certianly not a frosted glass tube. But that's just me.
  Later
• Can't argue with that - Gorel
  Tolkien only describes it as "a small crystal phial." I think I know what you mean by the diamond thing. We have two very different images! But Tolkien pretty much leaves it up to our imaginations, which is why I was curious.
• The sequence doesn't make me think that Tom's influence - Frodo Hoy
  extends into that darkness. Tolkien uses the sequence of thought initiated by Sam moving his hand to his sword to demonstrate that the plight that Frodo and Sam are in is similar (but not the same in every respect) to the peril that they faced in the barrow. The barrow was dark, the hobbits were small, the foe (the wight) was too powerful for them to overcome by their own devices, they were trapped, they needed help from an outside agency (Tom) and it took an act of one of the hobbits (Frodo) to initiate the summoning of that aid. In this instance, although it is not a person but a gift that a person has given that provides aid, the same conditions apply regarding the darkness, the too powerful foe, the trap, etc. In this instance, however, I venture to say that the hobbits take a more active role in their deliverance than way back in the barrow. In the barrow, Frodo cut off a hand and called for Tom. Here, the actions of both (but especially Sam as the whole scene plays out) are a significant part of their deliverance - demonstrating their growth over the course of their perilous venture to destroy the Ring. Back to the original question, what makes Sam recall the gift of Galadriel? Was it by her design, was it Gandalf's influence from afar, or was it by the workings of Eru in Sam's mind? Or was it by another agency that I have not named? I think that Galadriel, although maybe not distinctly, foresaw the need that would arise and thus she bestowed her gift. Was it her power actively at work at that moment to remind Sam of the gift? I just don't think so. Was it Gandalf's influence, much as when Frodo was atop Amon Hen? Again, I don't think so. I don't remember the exact reference, but at some time Gandalf has said that the Ringbearer has passed beyond his ability to see (words to that effect - the reference might be in a later chapter of the book, but in regard to the time in ME have occurred before that moment). Was it a "chance" train of thought that led Sam to recall the gift at that moment? If that is all you believe in, then I suppose it was "chance". However, by the cosmology that Tolkien created in this realm, I would say that the influence of Iluvatar is seen in this instance, much as when by "chance" Bilbo first laid his hand on the Ring in the darkness at the root of the Misty Mountains. That's one feeble hobbit's opinion - I could be wrong.
• Book IV, Chapter 9. Part 4: Why doesn't Shelob want the Ring? - Kimi
  "Little she knew of or cared for towers, or rings, or anything devised by mind or hand, who only desired death for all others, mind and body, and for herself a glut of life, alone, swollen till the mountains could no longer hold her up and the darkness could not contain her." Well, a magic ring could be quite useful in achieving those goals. So why does Shelob have no interest in it? Does she even sense its presence, as other evil beings seem to?
• Can she really be evil if all she really is... - Patty
  is hungry?
• Patty, what an interesting juxtaposition - Kimi
  of message and footer :-)
• Because she already thinks of herself as powerful enough? - Annael
  No one has ever gotten past her lair before, except Gollum, whom she permitted to serve her. I also think she's lazy. She doesn't want to go out and have to hunt for prey, just trap those that come to her. Apparently she gets enough. The Ring works on ambition, and hers is already fulfilled. I like it when Tolkien likens her to Sauron's cat. Cats pretty much think they own the world already, and would rather sleep.
• I never got the impression she was particularly bright. - Nenya
  Offer a cat the choice between a bowl of Tender Vittles and a can opener, and the cat will go for the Tender Vittles every time. Yeah, I know ... part of it is because cats have no opposable thumbs. But part of it is simply because dinner on a dish makes far more sense to a cat than a pantry full of cans. I suspect that, while Shelob's ancestry may be traced to Ungoliant, Shelob was a lesser creature, more intent on satisfying cravings using the direct approach rather than by craft and subtlety. To repeat part of the quote you used, Kimi :Little she knew of or cared for towers, or rings, or anything devised by mind or hand. She just didn't get the concept of rings, and (assuming that the concept was in her power to eventually encompass) it wasn't in Sauron's interests to educate her. The last thing Sauron needed was another potential greedy player on the field.
• Hmmm good question - Narya
  like Idril says, I don't think her mind worked that way. She was, obviously, a lot more intelligent then your average funnel backed spider, but all she was interested in was consumption. She was a very single minded individual. Looking into her origins, I suppose this raises a further question over Ungoliant. If Ungoliant was of ainur origin, woudn't her descendants show identifying traits (such as lust for power). It has to be possible tht Ungoliant was not of ainur origin. Even the wise cannot see all ends.

• Animals in power? - Dmitri Ravinoff
  The ring will create another Dark Lord, but does that apply to animals as well? There are no animals in the book that show any desire for the ring, and in fact, Shelob is the only one who shows any intrest in power at all. The only benefit that it would give her would be invisibility, and she doesn't really need that, becuase until Sam no one had even bothered to attack her. She doesn't have to live in the shadows like gollum did. Plus she has her webs and poison, whereas gollum only had his hands, so really, she has absolutely no use for the ring.
• pure evil? - Gorel
  When I read the description of Shelob this time it was striking because we've talked a lot about the moral complexity of Tolkien's characters. Gollum, one of the nastiest creatures in the books, had a close call with redemption in the last chapter. Tolkien said that Sauron was not wholly or always evil, and he was given a chance to repent before the Valar. Tolkien also found the idea that orcs were predestined to evil difficult (although I can't remember his conclusion). But Shelob is portrayed as a being of pure malice and her only desire seems to be to consume the whole world light first. Her appetite isn't even the natural appetite of the animal world, in balance with the rest of nature, and above moral considerations (like a real spider's). I can't imagine it even occuring to the Valar to offer her forgiveness, or that she's ever been less evil (only less powerful). Which makes her an example of a classic moral problem; if Eru is good, how could he make Shelob? I wouldn't try to answer that, but I found this reference by Tolkien to it: "That Sauron was not himself destroyed in the anger of the One is not my fault: the problem of evil, and its apparent toleration, is a permanent one for all who concern themselves with our world". I think Shelob would love to consume Sauron, his Ring, and every orc in Mordor, but the Ring as a tool is most useful for dominating others. She sits alone in her tunnels and eats what comes to her. As powerful and cunning as she is I think she has the mentality of an animal, and wouldn't know why or how to use the Ring. It just occurred to me that Old Man Willow didn't show any interest in the Ring either.
• Her brain just doesn't work that way - Idril Celebrindal
  Shelob is just a spider -- albeit a giant, cunning one -- who operates on instinct and desire. I don't think she can comprehend what the Ring is or is even aware of its presence.
• Maybe she is aware of it - Draupne
  but just doesn't care? Why should she if she has no instinct telling her that it is dangerous to her or food? Golumn must have communicated with her in some way though, so IMO she isn't all instincts.
• She doesn't have any fingers - Draupne
  Sorry, just had too ;-) But she doesn't want to rule anyone, just eat them. Seem to me she wants another kind of power than what the Ring provides.
• you beat me to it ;) - Steve D
• I don't think she's interested in power at all - - Hmpf
  she really just wants food.
• Book IV, Chapter 9. Part 3: What is Shelob? - Kimi
  Shelob is described as "last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world." Ungoliant appears to have been a spirit that came to Arda soon after its creation; the general consensus is that she was probably a Maia, or perhaps another order of Ainu. She took the physical form of a spider, and produced offspring, either by a form of parthenogenesis or by finding a mate somewhere. Shelob clearly has a physical form, and she has produced offspring of her own; at least some of them by sexual reproduction. So what is she? She's not a Maia, as she seems to have been born in Middle-earth. Is she just a particularly large, evil and intelligent spider with some Maia blood? Does she have special powers beyond those of a spider? Is there any sign of what could be called "magic" about her?
• I don't think Shelob is a magic creature - Idril Celebrindal
  Beyond being extraordinarily large, tough, and long-lived, she doesn't seem to have any magical powers. She seems to be a very much dwindled descendant of Ungoliant, who posesses her ancestress' greed and malice but not her intelligence.
• Shelob is a negative version of Aragorn - Kyriel
  What I mean by that is, if you trace her ancestry back far enough, you'll find a Maia (well, *I* think Ungoliant was a Maia, anyway) -- and that's enough to make her more than just an average spider. There's the size thing, of course, and I wouldn't be surprised if she's particularly long-lived. But as for magic, no, I don't think she has any...or at least, no more than Aragorn has. Maybe her "gift" for weaving tangible darkness could be compared to his gift for healing. Neither of them got those abilities from their mortal ancestry. --Kyriel
• Book IV, Chapter 9. Part 2: Frodo the strong - Kimi
  Since Frodo and Sam entered the Morgul Vale, Frodo has felt the burden of the Ring more strongly than ever, needing Sam's help to keep going along the path. Yet now, in Shelob's lair, Frodo seems the stronger of the two: "Fighting off both the sickness and the fear, Frodo gripped Sam's hand. 'Up!' he said in a hoarse breath without voice. 'It all comes from here, the stench and the peril. Now for it! Quick!' Calling up his remaining strength and resolution, he dragged Sam to his feet, and forced his own limbs to move." Why might Frodo be more able to cope with the horror of Shelob's lair than Sam seems to be?
• Another thought. - Inferno
  Could it be the presence of Galadriel's phial, and the elven blade Sting that help him through this? The light in the phial is light from the Silmaril that Earendil carries in the skies. This light is hallowed by Varda, and comes from the original Two Trees, whose light gave the Eldar who saw it greater power and knowledge than those who had seen it not. Perhaps this light, even covered as it was at this point, instills in Frodo a greater capacity to act, and to overcome the darknesses of Shelob. Sting was forged by a smith of Gondolin (forget his name at the moment) during the height of Morgoth's power. The offspring of Ungoliant also dwelt in Nan Dungortheb, and were a menace to all who attempted to pass the region. As this narrow region was bordered by Doriath on one side, and the Moutains of Shadow on the other, the Noldor used to travel its southern extremity when sending messages between the hosts of Fingolfin and the sons of Feanor. Perhaps, in addition to its ability to warn its bearer when orcs are near, Sting was also imbued with special powers in dealing with the offspring of Ungoliant, and this helped him be more aware of Shelob, and also gave him the ability to overcome the shadows of fear. This could be why he was not aware of Shelob later and succumbed to her attack, once he had passed both light and Sting to Sam. Inferno.
• Frodo carries Evil with him, so the evil that surrounds him is perhaps less daunting. - Nenya
  The One Ring is an ever-present burden at this point. He's become inured to facing evil; Shelob is simply one more entity that has fallen into his private hell, and not the worst evil he's faced by far, since he has seen the Lidless Eye in Galadriel's mirror. The Ring also seems to have a tendency to protect itself. At this point in the story, it isn't in the Ring's best interests to be caught, and so I could easily imagine it lending Frodo strength to aid him in escaping the situation. If it had been in the Ring's best interest for Frodo to be captured at this point, then perhaps it would have instead weighed Frodo down with the depression and despair that seemed to grow in him as they neared their journey's end. I have to believe that part of the power that Frodo is being bolstered with is the Ring endeavoring to save itself and find its way back to Sauron.
• will - Gorel
  I think there's a clue a few lines further on when they get past the opening and "suddenly it was easier to move, as if some hostile will for the moment had released them." Their struggle through Shelob's Lair seems to be as much a test of willpower as of physical strength. Shelob seems to project her malevolence, and her evil spirit is almost manifest in the heavy air and darkness, as when Sam feels a "menace which he could not see; and such a weight did it become that it was a burden to him to run, and his feet seemed leaden." The moment you quote is almost a foreshadowing of Frodo's stand against Shelob shortly after, when it's his resolve and spirit that temporarily defeats Shelob and allows them to escape. I think Frodo has always been an extraordinary person when it comes to willpower in adversity. He volunteered to be the Ringbearer, and it was Frodo that saved the other hobbits from the wights. And I think especially in dealing with evil creatures, the Ring is increasing his sense of his own power, and he is on the path to becoming a dark Lord. I think it's interesting that Shelob, the wights and Old Man Willow are all menacing monsters (of varying degrees) that trap their victims with something like a spell.
• Just an idea . . . - Annael
  we've talked before about how Frodo actually became stronger & more able to resist the Ring as time went on. It was like he was being vaccinated, getting small doses that made his resistance stronger. Even though it was taking most of his strength to resist the Ring close to Mordor, perhaps his defences against other threats were now so strong that he was able to perceive and run from a horror that had Sam rooted.
• A crackpot theory . . . - Soothfast
  Yes, um, perhaps the Ring gave Frodo the strength. Usually it resisted his every move, but in Shelob's lair it might have been a different story. Spiders are known for devouring gems and pretty trinkets. I wonder: if Ungoliant would have been capable of devouring the Silmarils, might Shelob have been able to digest the One Ring? I'd guess not, for The Wise held that only Mount Doom or the fire in a Dragon's belly had the ability to consume rings of power. But again, Spiders were accomplished devourers in their own right. If the Ring sense this, it may have "decided" to become a help to Frodo rather than a hindrance. The more likely reason is simply that the One Ring enabled Frodo to sense things evil more surely than others around him. Bearing the ultimate tool of evil around is neck, he was more attuned to every manifestation of evil in his vicinity. And when you know there's deadly danger in the darkness ahead of you, you're going to go into overdrive and get out of there by any means necessary. Sam didn't sense what the Ring caused Frodo to sense, and so was as much "in the dark" figuratively as in actual fact.
• I agree - Ufthak
  It's very likely that the Ring boosted Frodo's awareness and a quick adrenaline-rush enabled him to get out of there. And don't forget his mad rush down the path on the toher side, taking him away from Sam and allowing Shelob to ponce on him.
  It may be that the Ring wanted to move. Having Frodo killed by Shelob would be likely to mean staying in Shelob's lair for ages - the orcs wouldn't venture in there unless there was a Nazgul right behind them, and they'd be reluctant then. The Ring wanted to move.
• makes sense to me - Steve D
• That was "other" side, and Shelob "pounced". She did not "ponce"! - Ufthak
• Book IV, Chapter 9. Part 1: Why spiders? - Kimi
  When JRRT was a little child in South Africa, he was bitten by a tarantula. The episode is described in Humphrey Carpenter's Biography: "And many months later, when Ronald [as JRRT was called by his mother] was beginning to walk, he stumbled on a tarantula. It bit him, and he ran in terror across the garden until the nurse snatched him up and sucked out the poison. When he grew up he could remember a hot day and running in fear through long, dead grass, but the memory of the tarantula itself faded, and he said that the incident itself left him with no especial dislike of spiders. Nevertheless, in his stories he wrote more than once of monstrous spiders with venomous bites." He certainly did. We have the spiders of Mirkwood in The Hobbit, Shelob in The Lord of the Rings, and of course the ancestress of them all, Ungoliant. What do you think? Did that early traumatic experience influence JRRT to choose spiders as a convenient monster? Are there other "literary" spiders that might have influenced his choice?
• Evil female archeotype, I think. - Steve D
  The fact that female spiders of some species eat their mates. And also the ability to spin webs is kind of a feminine thing.I thought it was interesting that Eomer compared Galadreal to a spider.
• Not necessarily evil - Sangarunya
  - the an even older archtype than that of the repulsive (evil) spider, is the one of the spider as a trickster-figure in various mythologies around the world, as for example Ananse, female spider-trickster of African myth, or for that matter Spider-woman of native american folklore.
• I agree but to Tolkien... - Steve D
  Shelob was certainly evil. One thing I've noticed is that working with cloth, weaving, sewing, and so forth, is mostly the area of women and to men seems like magic. (Related to the spiders' webs.)
• I always been told that they mean luck - Draupne
  Personally I jump everytime I see one, but aren't the "plump" ones luck-bringers? That doesn't fit well with Shelob, but I think spiders also have been thought of as an important ingredient in witch potions etc. I don't know how old this belief is though, it might be made up during the last centuries. Personally I jump everytime I see one, so I think it was a perfect choise.
• Spiders do evoke just the right kind of repulsiveness... - Patty
  as Nenya said, identifiable and to most people at least a little repulsive. I can't stand them myself, and if Tolkien says his being bitten didn't influence his imagination in creating all the spiders that populate Middle-Earth I'd have to believe him but say he chose just the right bug to create the horror.
• Why not spiders? - Nenya
  Tolkien wanted a nightmare monster; something that would frighten the reader at a visceral level. For that you want something alien and yet identifiable. Something in the realm of everyone's experience, and yet something that repulses most people. Spiders are perfect for that. Eight eyes, too many legs that bend in the wrong direction, the capability of producing a nasty bite, with some species reputed to have the ability to kill. I mean, we're talking about animals that suck the guts out of their victims while they are still alive! Everybody knows what a spider looks like. Everybody has jumped at one time or another when a spider unexpectedly appears in a shoe or on a book or in the bathtub. So all but the most hardened arachniphiles are going to curl their toes and feel something climbing up their legs when confronted with the idea of Shelob. If Tolkien said that the early experience of being bitten by a spider did not influence his decision, I'm perfectly willing to believe him. Spiders were still the perfect choice, without throwing that personal experience into the mix. Best of all, no one is going to debate whether or not Shelob had wings.
• I'll bet it was an influence - Soothfast
  Ungoliant was the first and greatest. Later descendants were malicious in like measure but diminished in size (like Shelob and especially the Spiders of Mirkwood). By logical extrapolation one could say that all the little spiders of the world today are devolved spawn of the same race, insect-sized and living solely by instinct, bereft of evil only because they're now too benighted and amoral to even grasp the concept of either evil or good. Tolkien needed to pick some critter which had precedence in modern-day myth or reality, and the spider was a clear choice since many people have an innate dread of them and ascribe negative attributes to them. He might have gone with scorpions or some such, but spiders are more prevalent throughout the world and he had better firsthand experience with them. Scorpions, on the other hand, only inhabit arid regions of the Earth. He did a similar thing when he took the present-day wolf and conceived of the vicious race of Wargs; and snakes and serpents of today have their Middle-earth analogue in the great worms known as Dragons. Our elephants have Oliphaunts as their forebears. It all fits a pattern. Tolkien rarely created something that was in no way akin to something we have in the world today. His childhood experience with the tarantula ensured that it was impossible for him to overlook the potential of the spider as an age-old terror in his cosmology.
• And spiders have the additional "benefit" - Ufthak

Inferno
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Apr262009,4:11am

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• Book IV, Chapter 10 - Summing up - Annael
  The chapter opens with Sam attacking Shelob, who is standing over Frodo's senseless body. Although there is no way Sam can physically prevail against Shelob, his rage and grief allow him the strength to wound her in one eye, and then Shelob undoes herself by spitting herself on Sam's sword in an attempt to crush him. In pain and unable to stand the light of Galadriel's phial, fueled by the intensity of Sam's emotions, Shelob retreats. Sam then turns to Frodo, who to his horror appears to be dead. We witness Sam's shock, rage, and grief. We then witness Sam's strength of character as he slowly reasons out that he must go on and fulfill the quest. Sam takes the Ring and goes on, without hope. But almost immediately, he hears Orcs behind him. Sam's loyalty to Frodo proves stronger than his commitment to the quest - he cannot leave Frodo's body to be mauled by the Orcs. He turns back and follows them as they haul Frodo into the tunnels below the fortress of Cirith Ungol. With the Ring on, Sam's hearing is sharpened, and he overhears the conversation between two Orc captains, Shagrat from the tower and Gorbag from Minas Morgul. For the first time since Rohan, we hear the perspective of the Orcs. In their conversation, we learn that Frodo is not dead, only unconscious from Shelob's venom. Sam, after a typical moment of berating himself for being stupid, leaps out to save Frodo, but is shut out of the fortress as the door slams behind the Orcs and their captive. And once again, we have one of Tolkien's cliffhanger endings, and a whole book to go before we learn what happens next.

• Thanks, Annael. Excellence is your standard! - Patty
• Great job Annael! - Steve D
• Thanks Annael. Good job as usual! - Kimi
• Great job with this chapter, Annael! Thanks for leading. - Frodo Gardner
• Book IV, Chapter 10, Part VIII: Orders from Lugburz - Annael
  "Prisoner is to be stripped. Full description of every article, garment, weapon, letter, ring, or trinket is to be sent to Lugburz at once, and to Lugbruz only. And the prisoner is to be kept safe and intact . . . until He sends or comes Himself." This sounds to me like Sauron did at least consider the possibility that the Ringbearer might try to slip into Mordor. Do you think?
• He might also be looking out for the elven rings - Sauron's Finger
  If someone got in with one of the Elvish rings, especially if it's someone like Elrond or Gandalf, they could probably do a lot of damage. The One Ring could also me effective offensively. You are not free whose liberty is won by the rigour of other, more righteous souls. Your are merely protected. Your freedom is parasitic, you suck the honourable man dry and offer nothing in return. You who have enjoyed freedom, who have done nothing to earn it, your time has come. This time you will stand alone and fight for yourselves. Now you will pay for your freedom in the currency of honest toil and human blood.

• I think he considers it as a remote possibility - Blue Wizard
  Even though it is inconceivable to him that someone would try to destroy the Ring, he has considered the possibility that someone would attempt a repeat performance of Beren, Luthien and Huan sneaking into his very throneroom to cause trouble. Last time that happened, Morgoth lost a Silmaril, and Sauron, in wolf-shape, got torn to shreds by Huan. It's not very likely to happen again. . . but why take any chances?
• Hmm. I think probably not - Kimi
  I think perhaps the orders are considering the possibility that a patrol might have captured the Ringbearer, perhaps in Ithilien, perhaps nearer to Minas Tirith, and brought him to Mordor via Cirith Ungol. We're told so often that Sauron never considered the possibility of anyone attempting to destroy the Ring (and he certainly seems to get a heck of a surprise when it happens!), and I don't know what other reason Sauron might imagine the Ringbearer would have for sneaking into Mordor.

• perhaps - Arathorn
  A Ringbearer coming in Lugburz to challenge him and fight? Well, if it were Aragorn, perhaps. But my guess would be weird if it were a hobbit, though... ____________________________________

• On the other hand... - Ufthak
  The orders would be unlikely to distinguish along the lines of "If it's a man, hold him intact, if it's a litle wool-footed creature toast the little beggar for fun".
• I always kind of thought so - Steve D
  but now that you point it out I wonder. It seems like the importance Sauron places on the unknown intruders must have something to do with his suspicions that they might have the Ring.

• Actually, it sounds like it could be standard orders for Captured Intruders of any kind. - dudalb
  Sauron or his second in command would want to milk them of any information they might have...
• Book IV, Chapter 10, Part VII: Gorbag and Shagrat. - Annael
  Gorbag talks about "you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads" and Shagrat says "Ah! Like old times." This made me wonder - were the orcs "called up" by Sauron to serve in his armies? Where did they live before? Is this an orc pipe-dream or do you think it did and could happen?
• The orcs in 'The Hobbit' seemed rather independent... - Hmpf
  Hmm... this reminds me of a song we sang at the Tolkienfest I attended the weekend before last... It was sung to the tune of Yellow Submarine and the lyrics were from an orc's POV... *g*
• I've always understood - Steve D
  that they were talking about the time when Sauron had been defeated and was not yet so powerful, so they had some independence.
• I think that the War of the Orcs and Dwarves would indicate... - dudalb
  That when Sauron was laying low and rebuilding his strength the Orcs did have their own goverment, probably on a tribal basis. What is intersting to me is that Tolkien Shows they had no great love For Sauron.
• Book IV, Chapter 10, part VI: Sam reneges. - Annael
  Sam's resolve does not last long; the thought of the orcs savaging Frodo's body is too much for him. Is this a failure, or another step in Sam's growth?
• A failure from the Vulcan perspective. - septembrist
  Once again Sam's heart defeats logic when it comes to Frodo. I don't know how he would have prevented the orcs from mutilating or corrupting Frodo's body unless he attacked them using the Ring for cover. It could conceivably have worked since the orcs would have been surprised and terrified.
  Even so, Sam's love for Frodo seems to have outweighed his love for the Shire or of ME.
  It is interesting but when I read the book, I agree entirely with Sam's point of few. I do not shout at Sam to continue the quest nor consider his decision a failure. I hope that he does "rescue" Frodo's body. So, perhaps I am at fault for being too analytical and logical and not letting my heart rule.
• The triumph of heart once more? - Kimi
  Sam undervalues his own wisdom. All his life it's been assumed by those around him that he's not-too-bright; even his name, "Samwise", means "half-wise, simple". He's thought things through logically, but his love for Frodo overpowers that logic. And perhaps he was subconsciously aware that Frodo was not dead, and that made the idea of the orcs' taking him even more repugnant. His "failure" here, caused as it is by love and humility rather than weakness, is redeemed and eventually brought to fruition.
• A failure? Perhaps... - Frodo Gardner
  I think it was an unwise decision from the perspective of the best opportunity to fulfill the Quest - at least, with the facts and suppositions that Sam had in his consciousness. The fact that events turned out for the best doesn't negate the fact that Sam intended to throw away the Quest to protect what he thought was the dead body of his master. Having said that, it was an awful choice to go on without consideration for what the orcs might do to Frodo's corpse. There are divided loyalties and decisions between what is good, better, and best in real life. Sam made a loyal decision from a heart of faithful love. It did not make the best sense from a purely logical perspective, and it "betrayed" one loyalty to satisfy another, but it wasn't an evil decision. So.... my opinion is that Sam did not fail. He chose to follow a course that would most likely mean failure for the Quest (in fact, I think he thought it was a certainty when he decided as he did). But it was a decision based in love, and it did not betray his cause in the end.
• Book IV, Chapter 10, Part V: Sam resolves to go on. - Annael
  Sam, faithful follower, finds himself alone with a terrible burden and responsibility. I think this is Sam's trial by fire, right here. How does he deal with it?
• He grows up. In a matter of minutes. - Hmpf
  Until this chapter, Sam has been rather dependent on Frodo for guidance and decision making. Although Frodo is not so much older than him, he is almost a bit of a father figure for Sam. Now that he finds himself - seemingly - the last of the fellowship, he has to make his own decisions, most specifically, *the* decision of what to do with the ring. Not that he has that many options - just like Frodo, he knows that running away is not an option, simply because once Sauron wins, there's nowhere you can run. (Of course, also just like Frodo, Sam probably wouldn't run even if it *were* an option.)
• Magnificently - Kimi
  It's interesting that in yesterday's discussions we were talking about the way Sam acted from the heart in attacking Shelob. Now he must use his head. He measures up his duty and the likely outcomes of whatever course of action he might take, and comes to the logical conclusion: he must take the Ring and go on.
• Book IV, Chapter 10, Part IV: Tolkien on suicide. - Annael
  "He looked on the bright point of the sword. He thought of the places behind where there was a black brink and an empty fall into nothingness. There was no escape that way. That was to do nothing, not even to grieve." Tolkien, as a Catholic, would consider suicide a terrible sin. But when I read that last sentence, it struck me as the most compelling non-religious argument against suicide I'd ever read. To kill oneself because a love has gone is to dishonor that love, that person. Or so I read it. Thoughts?
• Kimi, Frodo Gardner, I agree (but with added extras) - Cat of Queen Berúthiel
  I have always loved this passage and yes, I agree that it shows Tolkien's basic feelings about suicide (which I wholeheartly agree with). But something has struck me in his books. The Kings of Numenor not only had long lives, but the marvellous gift of being able to leave this world when they chose (obviously only when they were old and soon to die anyway). Aragorn's last words to Arwen in the appendix about "do you want me to live on until (basically) I am senile and sick?" - sorry, I can't remember the exact words - are depicted as noble. Aragorn makes the decision to leave the world when he still has all his wits and before he is completely crippled by age - by his own choice, even against the desire of Arwen. In fact, some of the later, evil Kings of Numenor did not make this choice, and it was seen as bad. They lived on until they gave up their lives unwillingly. (again, I can't quote the passage exactly)
  This is certainly not "suicide" in the sense of what Sam briefly considered. The closest thing to this in our world that I can think of is Voluntary Euthanasia? When you are old and terminally ill and you can feel the end coming anyway?
  *The Cat gets out the fire extinguisher* I am certainly not trying to start a flame war, but this 'ability to go when you know the time is right' has always struck me as something wonderful to be able to do. Firstly, (and most importantly, IMHO) to be able to KNOW that your alloted time is up, and then to be able to simply lie down and slip gently into eternal peace.
  Opinions?
• I always liked that phrase "to give back the gift." - Annael
  As opposed to Denethor (surprised no one's brought him up yet), who not only killed himself but sought to take his son with him, Aragorn chooses to lay down his life after having accomplished all that was expected of him, and when he could leave his kingdom in the hands of a capable successor. "To give back the gift" acknowledges that his life was given to him to do all that he did, and he now gives it back with gratitude and humility.
• "To do nothing" - Kimi
  Taking his own life would be a meaningless action, and would make Frodo's death meaningless. Even if he spends the last minutes or hours or days of his life sitting by Frodo and grieving for him, he would have done something of meaning: he would have expressed his love for Frodo. His choice, he decides, is to go on or to stay. To kill himself would, as you suggest, dishonour Frodo and the love Sam bore him.
• Sam is a doer. In his make-up, - Frodo Gardner
  the worst thing for him to do is to do nothing. He equates his consideration of a quick end to his life as essentially doing nothing and quickly dismisses it as the futile path that it is. He is infected with the completion syndrome, and concludes that the proper thing for him to do is to "see it through", with the "it" being the Quest that Frodo and his companions were charged to complete. I agree with you about the suicide perspective, Annael. Without bringing in a "religious" argument, Tolkien has used the character of Sam to describe the ultimate futility of suicide. It accomplishes nothing useful and therefore should be rejected as a choice of action. It certainly doesn't honor the people that you love, nor does it bring honor upon oneself. !!!!!!(WARNING - potential for the previous statement to be construed as culturally insensitive to those people groups that consider suicide as an honorable action under certain circumstances. A culture clash may ensue. WARNING....DANGER, WILL ROBINSON!)!!!!!!
• "Will Robinson"? - Ufthak
  I'm curious.
  On a personal note, I've never seen the point of suicide. As a non-religious person I don't believe in any form of afterlife, so if it is to escape from grief or misery, what's the point? You'll never know you've escaped.
• Yeah, I'd like to know about this Will Robinson person, too! - Hmpf
  Until a month ago, I'd never heard of him. Now suddenly he pops up all over the place, wherever I go, and I still don't know who he is! (First time I heard a reference to him was on Farscape, when Crichton sees a seemingly mad prisoner who has gone through some torture he is about to go through, too - his comment to this is 'Danger, Will Robinson, beware the chair, beware the chair!' - anyone care to explain that to me? :-))
• Answer for the Danger Will Robinson - Ron Austin
  The reference is to the Television show "Lost in Space"
  The show was based on the comic book Space Family Robinson which in turn was a science fiction take off of Swiss Family Robinson.
  Billy Mummy played one of the family his name was Will Robinson. The spaceship had a utility Robot inspired by Robby the Robot from the film Forbidden Planet. The Lost in Space show eventually turmed into pure camp and the Robot would wave his arms in dangerous situations and blare out warnings such as "Danger , Danger Will Robinson!" or warning, warning! I remember this show fondly although it aired opposite a new show called Star Trek.(does anyone know what happened to that show?? :-)
• Okay, you are a sci-fi nut, so - Frodo Gardner
  I might have a shot at relating, even though I'm an old codger..... There was an American TV show in the 60's called "Lost in Space". You may have heard of it, as an absolutely dreadful movie was made in the last few years with the same title and premise (William Hurt was one of the stars in the movie, I think). In that series, there was a robot who was a friend of the young kid (played by Bill Mumy - no idea why I remember that; the mother was played by June Lockhart, who was the mom in the Lassie TV series - but I digress, as old puttsers are wont to do). The kid's name was Will Robinson. The robot was always sensing danger approaching (in various forms) and saying, "Warning! Danger, Will Robinson!" It was a really hoaky moment, guaranteed to be in there at least once an episode (oftentimes more). It's the kind of thing that sticks with a person long after the years of childhood are past. I'm sorry to drag you through memory lane with me. Many of the "older" ones on this board probably knew my reference without a second thought - ah, the things you kids missed out on! The horrible special effects, the contrived story lines, the awful acting... and we loved it!
• LOL - Okay, now I know! - Hmpf
  I guess I can be forgiven my ignorance- I think this is one show that never aired in Germany!
• Confession: I recognised it immediately! - Kimi
  "Lost In Space" was a big part of my childhood viewing. I... um... even had a picture of Billy Mumy on my wall for a while :-)

• Uh-oh, Kimi, you're dating yourself again! - Frodo Gardner
  I thought you were going to say that you were familiar with it because "Lost in Space" is just now making its first run on New Zealand television. (I know, that was a very bad attempt at humor - but did you laugh?) This whole aging thing has its required adjustments - several years ago, when I started noticing whiskers of a different shade in my mustache, I thought that some of my hairs were just turning very blond. I refused to admit to myself that I was actually getting gray hair! Mrs. Frodo G. gets a great kick out of that still. I did, of course, finally reconcile myself to the fact that my youth was behind me. Now, when I make references without even considering the era they come from, I keep getting brought up short by all the "kids" that haven't a clue where the allusion came from. It's the same with the songs I parody. I haven't bothered to keep up with popular music for quite a few years (even though I have two teens at home), so when I haul out one of the moldy oldies for a parody, I've got a large portion of the TORNies saying, "Nope, I don't know that song!" Ahhh, but I'll keep hauling out the oldies, anyway!

• No she's not! :-) I recognised it too! - Cat of Queen Berúthiel
  So, I may not have watched the series DURING the 60's, but they sure repeated it for a long time afterwards!
  Ahhh, the standard issue skivvie for all sci-fic shows....
• Good for you! - Kimi
  Many of us do recognise your parodied songs, of course. I remember watching Lost In Space in the mid to late 60s. It may well have taken a couple of years to get here. Not 30+ though!
• That's okay, Kimi, I promise not to use that against you . . . - Annael
  unless the moment really calls for it . . . hee hee.
• Yes, and going back even farther . . . - Annael
  the robot was copied from a 1950s sci-fi movie, "Forbidden Planet" starring Walter Pidgeon and, of all people, Leslie Nielsen as the dashing captain/romantic lead. Worth seeing, actually, especially for the line "Monsters from the id!"
• The Forbidden Planet is a classic!!!! - Frodo Gardner
  You know, for a made in the 50's movie, it was actually pretty good! I saw Forbidden Planet again not too many years ago and was struck by the eerie similarity between that robot and Robot on "Lost in Space". Hey, when you work with a TV budget, borrowed ideas and equipment are often the best! I watched a lot of Star Trek, as I'm sure many people did. I never really got into all the details about the making of the original series, but I remember vaguely an article that I read or interview that I saw where some of the props were being discussed. They were so low budget, they used salt shakers to fashion some of the phasers. It took some of the mystery of the show away for a while. Ah, well. The old myths must be exposed for their reality, I suppose. But who mourns for Adonis?
• I love this board - from suicide to "Forbidden Planet" in one thread . . . - Annael

• Well.... I suppose watching "Forbidden Planet" could drive one to suicide! - Frodo Gardner
• Book IV, Chapter 10, Part III: Frodo, Mr. Frodo! - Annael
  "Don't go where I can't follow!" I for one can't read this passage without choking up. I think Tolkien does a fair job of putting the first three stages of dealing with death (denial, anger, despair) in one paragraph. How did this passage affect you when you first read it? Did you think Frodo was really dead?
• Being impatient... - Hmpf
  I had browsed through all of the three volumes before I began reading the book, so I knew Frodo had to be alive, for he was in the next volume. However, that did not prevent me from *nearly* crying... I think I've never cried when reading a book as yet, but I've never come so close to it as when I read this chapter...
• I did. - Inferno
  I thought Frodo had died. Tolkien isn't above killing off main characters, like Boromir, and (sort of) Gandalf. He also has several minor characters die, Hama being a notable one at this point in the tale. I was sure Frodo had died the first time I read this, and even still, I share in Sam's loss when I read this part. The other major fakeout death I fell for was Pippin at the end of Book V, when the troll falls on him. Not nearly as heart-wrenching as this one is, though. Inferno.
• Heartbreaking! - Kimi
  I just can't remember for sure if I really thought Frodo was dead. I suspect I did think so. My heart bleeds for Sam at this point. His life has just lost its meaning. Anyone who's lost a loved one has felt at least a little of his misery; but Sam has lost his loved one away from home, friends and family; away from any person or thing that can give him comfort and love.
• Book IV, Chapter 10, Part II: Shelob's end. - Annael
  "and so Shelob, with the driving force of her own cruel will, with strength greater than any warrior's hand, thrust herself upon a bitter spike." Can you see some parallels between Shelob and any one else in LOTR in this passage?
• Oddly enough (or perhaps not) - Aiya
  That quote reminds me a great deal of Denethor. His death (as is Shelob's pain) is a direct result of his own actions. As she drives herself down onto the sword, so to does Denethor drive himself to the grave, burning himself alive. No one else could have done it- it was his will alone. Those two characters are, in essence, a little alike, as I think about it now, both having incredibly strong, egotistical wills that can not truly be hurt by anyone but themselves. And the end quote of the bitter spike reminds me of Denethor's death too... it was bitter for him with his kingdom falling (he thought) to ruin, his sons either dead or dying. I'm having trouble getting out completely what I want to say- I think it's just that they both have such overpowering wills- that they can get people to do what THEY want even at the expense of others- that they are the only ones who are strong and hardened enough to harm themselves. btw- when I say the characters are a little alike I am NOT taking into account the fact that Shelob is pretty much pure evil/hunger.
• It made me think of Denethor, too, Aiya. - Hmpf
  Something about that knowing you will only hurt yourself/kill yourself but proceeding nevertheless definitely reminds me of him.
• Not LotR, but Silmarillion. - Inferno
  If I recall correctly, this seems similar to Glaurung's impalement on Turin's sword, Gurthang. The worm skewers himself even more than he was already wounded by his own weight as he tries to crush Turin, and to get his body across the chasm. Of course, Shelob and Glaurung are in entirely different classes. Glaurung is the first of the cold-drakes, and is cunning, wily, and intelligent. Shelob is the last of the great spiders, and is instinctive and animalistic. Inferno.
• I didn't think Glaurung had anything to do with his own death - Ufthak
  I re-read the Sil last week, and I don't recall anything about it. I thought Turin just stabbed him, and if his own weight fell on the sword it was accident rather than design.
• You're not talking wiz-kebab here, are you? - Kimi
  :-) Seriously: I suppose that evil is often the cause of its own ultimate downfall in LOTR. Sauron forges the Ring that destroys him with its destruction. Saruman makes Grima into the spiteful, tormented creature who turns on his master. Gollum's overpowering Ring-lust, and his exulting in its possession, leads to his final fall. I think Sauron is the closest parallel of the three I've named; the other two were stretching the conceit :-)
• Ah, Greebo! Nice footer! - Ufthak
• Evil's egotistical end... - Steve D
  These, plus the Balrog, the Witch-king, the Orc leaders we meet, the Mouth of Sauron all went proudly and confidently to their destruction. The good guys never had to hunt one down.
• Book IV, Chapter 10, The Choices of Master Samwise. Part 1. - Annael
  Sam attacks Shelob: "Then he charged. No onslaught more fierce was ever seen in the savage world of beasts, where some desperate small creature armed with little teeth alone, will spring upon a tower of horn and hide that stands above its fallen mate." What is Tolkien's purpose in phrasing his description of Sam's attack in this way?
• I'll go along with Kimi and Steve, I think. - Frodo Gardner
  In an economy of words, Tolkien draws a word picture that well describes the "battle" that Sam wages initially upon Shelob while he still leaves insignificant details to our separate imaginations. Sam doesn't have a battle plan - he reacts instinctively from his love and loyalty to Frodo. The depth of his feeling is described succinctly by emphasizing the animal ferocity with which Sam enters into the encounter and by the wonderful phrase, "No onslaught more fierce was ever seen in the savage world of beasts." We are left no doubt about the incredible intensity that was Sam's as he attacked his foe. Tolkien also gives a hint of the incredible disparity of ability to inflict harm by likening Sam to "some desperate small creature armed with little teeth" while Shelob is undoubtedly the "tower of horn and hide." And just before the sentences that Annael quotes, we are told that Sam did not even pause to think or devise a strategy - it was all reaction on the spur of the moment. "Sam did not wait to wonder what was to be done, or whether he was brave, or loyal, or filled with rage." Sam does, in a way, carry the team of the two hobbits the rest of the way after this point. Frodo has all he can handle just to withstand the pull of the Ring and keep himself moving toward Orodruin. Considering the incredible weight of the burden that he carries, combined with the effects of the wounds and mistreatment he suffers here and in the tower, it is a wonder that he went on at all. Sam and Frodo are both heroic, each in a different way. I know that wasn't the question, but it has come up before and I'd hate to see either Frodo's or Sam's roles minimalized - they were a team. Sam would not have been able to marshall the resources and continue on while he had the incredible additional burden of the Ring dragging on his psyche, his will. And neither would Frodo have had the strength or resourcefulness to continue - he needed someone else to handle all the thinking and the majority of the physical effort. It was enough for him that he continued to resist the pull of the Ring right up to the Cracks of Doom.
• In fact, Sam couldn't have had a "battle plan". - Nenya
  His mind simply didn't work that way. Even if he'd formulated an intelligent plan of attack, he was outmatched by far in this particular battle. There was no way that fighting finesse or clever moves were going to save the day here. His only hope really was to do the unexpected, attack immediately and as ferociously as possible. Attack from the heart, and not the brain.
• *In a Clint Eastwood voice* Yep. - Frodo Gardner
  You're right! Sam acted - he didn't think. Acting instinctively with a full head of steam was his best weapon, wasn't it? It's very good to see you on the board, Nenya. Your regular daytime presence is missed. I'm assuming it's a work-related issue that has curtailed your weekday time on TORN, but I'm happy to see that you get to drop in during "off" hours.
• Good points . . . - Annael
  We're going to talk more about Sam & how his role changes from this time on, tomorrow.
• Interesting. I think perhaps Tolkien is emphasising - Kimi
  that there is very little thought about what Sam does at this point. It's pure emotion: love for Frodo, and fury that Shelob has hurt him. And, of course, complete and utter disregard for his own safety. He's also emphasising the mismatch in size and strength between Sam and Shelob.
• It isn't intellect... - Steve D

Inferno
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Apr262009,4:12am

Post #38 of 65(29508 views)
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• Book V, Chapter 1: Minas Tirith -- "And to make a long story short." "Too late!" - Inferno
  "One by one you all arrived." Cool points for getting the quote. =) Anyhow. With this chapter, we not only start The Return of the King, we also jump back to the world outside Mordor, and the other members of the Fellowship, starting with Pippin. We are given our first introduction to two figures who are going to be prominent in the upcoming chapters: Denethor and Beregond. Both these figures give us differing views of the Men of Gondor. We are also shown the strength (or lack thereof) of Minas Tirith, and the fading glory of the City. This is in stark contrast to the view of Minas Morgul we are given just a few chapters previous in Book IV. A great sense of foreboding is left at the end of this chapter when Gandalf says, "The Darkness has begun. There will be no dawn." Since I was absent yesterday (and this morning) due to work related issues, I present this post as your chance to bring up any topics that I didn't cover in this chapter that you'd like to see discussed. Inferno.

• Thanks. Great Work, Inferno, from the Catch-up queen. - Patty
• That was great, Inferno. - Alnilam
  I think all other comments I might have about this chapter are actually more related to "The Siege of Gondor", so I'll keep them for then.
  Thank you very much for the nice discussions.
• [applause] - pindar
• I had no idea... - Steve D
  that there could be so many interesting and important points in this chapter. Thanks.
• Nicely done, 'Ferno! - Frodo Gardner
  I wish I'd had time to participate more fully - your lead-ins to discussion were great!
• It was a great discussion this week, thanks, Inferno - Annael
• Book V, Chapter 1: Minas Tirith -- "So few!" - Inferno
  "So few! Two hundreds, what are they? We hoped for ten times the number. That will be the new tidings of the black fleet. They are sparing only a tithe of their strength. Still every little is a gain." And "And that was all, less than three thousands full told. No more would come. Their cries and the tramp of their feet passed into the City and died away. The onlookers stood silent for a while." We aren't given an exact listing of the number of men in Minas Tirith, but even still, we understand that there are too few for the coming battle. As readers, we are aware that the forces of Rohan are coming, and in great numbers. The men of Gondor have no such knowledge, and the question 'Will Rohan come?' seems much on their minds. What is the general atmosphere that Tolkien manages to portray here? How does it bode of things to come? What expectations are set up here that are fulfilled (or not fulfilled) in later chapters? Inferno.
• It reinforces the sense of the fading - Kimi
  of Gondor. Gone are the massive (ooh, a pun!) forces of the Last Alliance. The people of Gondor seem aware that they are almost certainly doomed to failure; the small size of their forces illustrates that poignantly. That makes their stalwartness all the more admirable. The large forces will come from Rohan, the younger nation. Which of course sets up for the wonderful moment when the King returns at the head of his fleet! But that comes much later. While Aragorn's arrival comes as a surprise to the (first time) reader, we're anticipating the arrival of the Rohirrim. We're almost willing the forces of Gondor to hang on in there, help is coming. And when it does come! What a moment.

• Yeah, I know what you mean. - Alnilam
  I don't want to go into "The Siege of Gondor" too much just yet, but this sense of "Will Rohan come?", which at the same time represents the despair at the thought that they will not, and the hope that they will come after all is something. And it builds up nicely in "The Siege of Gondor"
• this is a great passage - Steve D
  I find this passage very moving. WE see the goodness and courage of Gondor's allies and our sense of fear for the outcome of the coming battle is increased. We share in the feelings of the people of Gondor.
• I am not a big fan of Historical parrallels with LOTR but in these chapters... - dudalb
  I cannot help but feel that Tolkien used some of what it must have felt like to be in Britain in the Summer and Fall of 1940 when Heavily Outnumberd, a thousand of so RAf Pilots was all that stood against Nazi Germany.

• I was thinking the same thing. - Steve D
• Book V, Chapter 1: Minas Tirith -- Bergil. - Inferno
  Known hereabouts more often as 'that annoying kid from Minas Tirith', or 'the Wesley Crusher of Lord of the Rings', he nevertheless fills a literary purpose. He acts as vehicle to get Pippin outside the city. Here we are given a glimpse of the forces of Gondor, riding into the city (more on this in the next post) which we wouldn't have without Bergil. Regardless, do you love him or hate him? Here's your chance to say anything and everything about Bergil. Inferno.
• I think that Bergil ... - Ron Austin
  is used in part to emphasize the size difference between Pippen and the Guard.
  Bergil also gives Pippen the tour of the city and allows Tolkien to show the fact that the most of the Women and Children had been evacuated.
• Actually, Bergil serves a very important function - Blue Wizard
  quite apart from providing a human face to the people of Gondor beyond the men-at-arms. Until this point, Pippin has been the adolescent of this group. He is young, irresponsible, impulsive. He has assumed no serious responsibility of any kind until this point in the story. Even his pledging himself to the service of Denethor was done on impulse; he doesn't really know why he did it, and although the service required of him is quite light (to this point) he already feels the weight of the responsibility bearing down on him. To this point, he hasn't really acted like "an adult", nor has anyone really treated him as one either. Until this point, his only peer, in age at least, is Merry, who was far more mature and responsible. They we meet Bergil, who, from outward appearance, would seem to be of the same age, although he is in fact much younger. After the initial bravado of their meeting, which has a flavor of two adolescents sizing one-another up, Pippin settles into a much more mature role. Bergil looks up to him; Pippin's rank and priviledges as an "adult" and as a member of the Tower Guard give him considerable status. And, not coincidentally, Beregond treats Pippin as an equal. Being treated as and adult for the first time in the story strike me as far more important than the whisperings of the people, proclaiming him a Prince.
  It prepares us for Pippin actually doing something important, other than simply by accident - eventually taking the responsiblity to save Faramir's life (and probably Merry's as well).
• good point, Blue I... - Steve D
  was thinking that Pippin was a Prince of the Halflings (kind of) but he didn't start acting like one until people started treating him like someone important.
• I think that's because - Annael
  he realized that he was THE representative of the Shire in Gondor, and that everyone would judge hobbits by him. As long as Frodo or Merry were there to serve as a good example, he could be irresponsible.
• While I have indeed compared Bergil to Wesley Crusher ... - Idril Celebrindal
  ... the comparison isn't quite accurate. To really be like Wesley, Bergil would have to singlehandedly save Minas Tirith a bunch of times, defeat a band of orcs by using obscure Elvish lore (there being no direct analog for the Star Trek technobabble deus ex machina in LOTR), and invent his own life form ... yet still flunk the pathetically easy entrance exams to the Tower Guard. Seriously, I thought Bergil (and by extension, his father Beregond) was meant to show the human face of Minas Tirith. They represent the ordinary people whose lives are at stake here.
• Neither love nor hate - Draupne
  The one that annoys me most must be Ioreths kinswoman from the country ;-) Seriously though, I've hardly noticed Bergil when reading. He was just there, although he didn't fit quite in IMO.
• An admission: I have no idea who Wesley Crusher is! - Kimi
  I don't mind Bergil at all. I think it's quite a good portrait of a lively, confident 10-year-old boy. They can be wearing, but their honesty is refreshing :-)
• Let me enlighten you - Annael
  He was the son of the doctor in "Star Trek: The Next Generation" and was a child prodigy. The boy pilot in "Galaxy Quest" was a takeoff on him, I think.
• Ah! Thank you, Annael! - Kimi
• good idea - Steve D
  I think this was a good idea of Tolkien's to put a child in, maybe both lighten things up and also to show the seriousness the men must have felt fighting to protect their families.
• Book V, Chapter 1: Minas Tirith -- Beregond - Inferno
  Many of the characters in Lord of the Rings, the hobbits being the notable exceptions, are 'great'. That is, they all tend to fall in the mythic hero mold, doers of great deeds, kings, wizards, and so on. Gandalf, Legolas, Aragorn, Boromir, Faramir, Theoden, Denethor, Eomer, and others all match this description. Enter Beregond, a "plain man of arms of the Third Company of the Citadel" as he calls himself. What perspectives does he present to the story that we don't receive from the noble and great? What are your opinions of Beregond as an individual? Is he a fair representation of the Men of Gondor, or is he an exception? Inferno.
• a strange confession - Gorel
  Beregond is one of my favorite characters. I just find his dilemna between duty to his mad lord and duty to Minas Tirith, between rules and common sense, and between honor and love for Faramir, to be one of the more focused and poignant dramas for a character in the books. I think he is more noble and great than the average soldier, which explains his admiration for Faramir, and the fact that he perceives a dilemna rather than just following orders. But my strange confession is that for a while I've been mentally working on a play centered around Beregond, set during the time when the prophetic dream came to Boromir and Faramir, and ending when Boromir leaves to find Imladris. It would be about Beregond learning the complexities of duty from seeing the strife inside the Steward's family. It would include an element where Beregond catches himself mimicing with Bergil the wrong aspects of the noble Denethor's relationship to Boromir. It would show Boromir and Faramir interacting as brothers and rivals, Boromir's favor with his father and Faramir's sad understanding of this. Ultimately the goal would be to add a depth to the scenes with Beregond because we'd understand how he got there. Now here's the strange part (as if this weren't stange enough); there ain't no chance I'd ever write that. I just like making it up in my head :)
• good idea, Gorel - Steve D
• Not so strange - Annael
  I often do that after reading a book or seeing a movie - find myself plotting out a "backstory" involving one of the minor characters. I loved "Remains of the Day" because it was that kind of story. We just never heard the main story - Lord Whosit's involvement with the Nazis - first.
• I think that being a Guard of the Citadel - Kimi
  is a post of some honour (in fact Beregond says so), so Beregond is presumably an above average soldier and citizen. He's perhaps the nearest we get to an "ordinary" family man (as opposed to hobbit), though. He misses his family who have been evacuated from the city. He shows a touching affection for his son ("A good lad, I may say"). He's aware that decisions are being made by the "great" that are unknown to him, and yet will affect him and his loved ones. He's brave and loyal, but less remote in his courage than some of the others you name. I get the feeling that, while he would risk his life (and does so) to do the right thing, he wouldn't risk it lightly. There is a lot he loves in his world. He obviously loves Faramir, and shares Faramir's love of things beyond warfare: "He [Faramir] is bold, more bold than many deem; for in these days men are slow to believe that a captain can be wise and learned in the scrolls of lore and song, as he is, and yet a man of hardihood and swift judgement in the field. But such is Faramir."
• And if a man is measured by the character and devotion of those who love him - Frodo Gardner
  then Beregond's love for Faramir shows Faramir to be of the very highest quality!
• I think he's better than most. - Steve D
  He has a strong love for honor and tradition, and in fact beomes a hero later on.
• Book V, Chapter 1: Minas Tirith -- Denethor. - Inferno
  "Theoden is a kindly old man. Denethor is of another sort, proud and subtle, a man of far greater lineage and power, though he is not called a king. ... you can tell him of his son Boromir. He loved him greatly: ... the more so because they were unlike. ... leave quiet the matter of Frodo's errand. ... And say nothing about Aragorn either, unless you must. ... if he comes, it is likely to be in some way that no one expects, not even Denethor. It will be better so. At least he should come unheralded by us." And: "Pride would be folly that disdained help and counsel at need; but you deal out such gifts according to your own designs. Yet the Lord of Gondor is not to be made the tool of other men's purposes, however worthy. And to him there is no purpose higher in the world as it now stands than the good of Gondor; and the rule of Gondor, my lord, is mine and no other man's, unless the king should come again." There are many other insightful passages into Denethor in this chapter. I've but excerpted two of them. What are your impressions of Denethor as we first meet him? Inferno.
• "He loved his son ... perhaps too much" - Idril Celebrindal
  We see several sides of Denethor here -- the proud ruler who is trying to conceal his despair over the fate of Gondor, the grieving father, and the subtle politician who can make even his grief serve him. Viewing Denethor as a father really humanized him for me. But what has always struck me is Gandalf's comment that Denethor loved Boromir perhaps too much. At first I didn't understand what he meant because as a parent, I feel like I can't love my kids enough. But after thinking about it for a while, I believe that Gandalf was speaking of the type of love that Denethor had for Boromir -- and by extension, for Faramir. Denethor seemed to love his sons not so much for themselves, but for what they represented and for what he could shape them into. It reminds me of parents who want to turn their kids into prodigies in sports, music, etc. They love their kids, too, but I sometimes get the feeling that they love their image of their children more than the messy and imperfect reality of them. Boromir is his father's favorite partly because his attitudes and ambitions are more in line with his father's, but also because he represents the continuation of Denethor's policies and of the traditions he believes in. Boromir was more influenced by his father and as the heir was the one of whom great things were expected. Denethor must have poured a lot of himself into Boromir while educating him for the Stewardship, and having his son die on what Denethor surely viewed as an irresponsible errand must have been bitter beyond the terrible grief a parent would feel for his dead son. It must have been as if part of Denethor himself was slain with Boromir, as it represents the death of his hopes as well as the death of his heir. Denethor's hopes now must rest on Faramir, the neglected younger son who is paradoxically most similar to his father in intelligence and bloodline. Denethor's love for his younger son is tainted by bitterness. Faramir was influenced by his father far less than Boromir was. Denethor clearly doesn't trust him to carry on his policies and traditions. And perhaps some of Denethor's bitterness is due to guilt over not paying attention to his younger son. I think there's also an element of regret that he didn't take advantage of his chance to have a direct say in the fashioning of Faramir's character until it was too late.
• Great post, IC! - Gorel
• like Boromir - Gorel
  Dentehor immediately seems so much like Boromir to me. He has the same grating arrogance, and a way of tossing out insulting remarks and then brushing them aside. It's ironic that the more the kingdom of Gondor failed, the more its stewards took refuge in their pride in a lost greatness. If Gondor were as noble and glorious as it used to be, I think Denethor would feel less insecure, and less compelled to throw his station in the face of someone he sees as a rival. In confronting Sauron through the palantir, Denethor has also failed in the same way Boromir did; by having too high an opinion of his own strength, and not recognizing a more subtle danger than force.
• A big difference between Denethor and Boromir - Kimi
  (and one that makes us see Denethor at almost his worst [the worst is yet to come]) is that by the time we meet Denethor he has already almost succumbed to despair. He knows in his heart that Boromir is dead even brfore he's told for certain, and we can only guess at the bitterness and unexpressed misery that's plunged him into. Boromir still had dreams of glory. Denethor's dreams are in ashes.
• heirs - Gorel
  I agree, especially since Boromir is his heir. I wonder how long the stewards have lived in fear of being the last lord of Gondor. They clearly know their line is waning, and have no real hope of the king returning. At some point as Sauron's power grew, I wonder if each of them started worrying about being the one to preside over Gondor's final downfall. Denethor finally becomes suicidal when he thinks Faramir, his remaining son and heir, and the one with the purest Numenorean blood, is dead.
• Oh now . . . - Annael
  It was Denethor, after all, who shaped Boromir to be the way he was. But I don't think of Boromir as being quite as bad as his father. Pippin remembers him as being "kindly," which is not a word one would use about Denethor, and on Caradhras it is Boromir who looks out for the hobbits. I don't remember him being insulting - certainly not any more than Legolas or Gimli could be at times. When Boromir says something about everyone being tired, "except, of course, our sturdy dwarf," I thought he was just gently teasing Gimli for being arrogant earlier. Not at all like the way Denethor snipes at Pippin, which is just mean-spirited. Boromir, I think, is also not quite as intelligent at Denethor, and in a way that worked to keep him from being as bitter over past lost glory as his father. I don't think Boromir brooded much. Faramir was the one who inherited the intelligence and introspective nature. If Denethor had not focused all his ambition on his older son, who knows what he might have made of Faramir? But like Aragorn, Faramir benefited from the spiritual gifts of being neglected and left to make his own way: humility and detachment, as well as compassion.
• yes - Steve D
  I think Boromir was overpowered by his father. It's interesting that Faramir, being the secoond son, had more freedom to develop in his own way. I think the death of their mother must have also added to the difficulty.
• Not spiteful like his father - Gorel
  I didn't mean that. But I meant his remarks can be so insensitive and proud that they're insulting. For instance, when he says at the Council "...and those who shelter behind us give us praise, if ever they hear our name: much praise but little help." And "Mayhap the Sword-that-was-Broken may still stem the tide - if the hand that wields it has inherited not an heirloom only, but the sinews of the Kings of Men."

• that last remark is interesting - Annael
  I agree it's a dig at Aragorn, but it comes when Boromir has first learned of his existence. That has to have been a major shock for him - I hope we see a bit more of his reaction in the movie. Guess what, you aren't going to rule Gondor after all, it's going to be this scruffy guy! What's interesting though is that he doesn't criticise Aragorn again after they start traveling together, and Pippin says "he always treated Aragorn with honor" later. So what was going on with him? We don't really know. I agree with you about the pride part, certainly, and the sense of Gondor Above All.

• Oh, definitely - Gorel
  If they have Viggo and Sean playing these two guys and they don't mine this relationship for gold, they ... um ... are foolish. Faramir does tell Frodo that Boromir would have had "reverence" for Aragorn if he believed he was who he said he was. He must have been watching Aragorn very closely, and I bet seeing him distraught and indecisive after Gandalf's death really got to Boromir.

• I hope they go that way - Annael
  and not make it into pure rivalry. It's a far more complicated relationship. Imagine being told all your life you're the steward holding a kingdom for a King that no one believes will ever come again, and then suddenly meeting him! Aragorn did inspire instant trust, as we see with the hobbits and Eomer. So there must have been all of that AND a sense of rivalry or need to prove himself for Boromir.

• reassuring quote from PJ on "Eonline" - Annael
  "For example, the character of Boromir. He is a fundamentally good person--good at heart--but he does things villains would do. He tries to take the Ring forcibly from Frodo. It's fun to film good people doing bad things, and it makes for a movie that has a little more interest and psychological content."
• Book V, Chapter 1: Minas Tirith -- Minas Tirith. - Inferno
  Some excerpts of the description of Minas Tirith: "For the fashion of Minas Tirith was such that it was built on seven levels, each delved into the hill, and about each was set a wall, and in each wall was a gate. ...the Great Gate in the City wall was at the east point of the circuit, ... the paved way that climbed towards the Citadel turned first this way and then that across the face of the hill. And each time that it passed the line of the Great Gate it went through an arched tunnel, piercing a vast pier of rock whose huge out-thrust bulk divided in two all the circles of the City save the first. For partly in the primeval shaping of the hill, partly by the mighty craft and labor of old, there stood up from the rear of the wide court behind the Gate a towering bastion of stone, its edge sharp as a ship-keel facing east. ... and there was crowned by a battlement; so that those in the Citadel might, like mariners in a mountainous ship, look from its peak sheer down upon the Gate seven hundred feet below. ...
  "A strong citadel it was indeed, and not to be taken by a host of enemies, if there were any within that could hold weapons; ...
  "Pippin gazed in growing wonder at the great stone city, vaster and more splendid than anything that he had dreamed of; greater and stronger than Isengard, and far more beautiful. Yet it was in truth falling year by year into decay; and already it lacked half the men that could have dwelt at ease there. In every street they passed some great house or court ... now they were silent, and no footstep rang on their wide pavements, nor voice was heard in their halls, nor any face looked out from door or empty window." Minas Tirith is the 3rd real glimpse we get of Numenorean architecture, the Argonath and Orthanc being the previous two examples. Since this is Numenorean work, the nautical language used in its description seems rather appropriate, though it isn't something I picked up on until I had the background of Numenor from the Silmarilion and Unfinished Tales. What does this description evoke in your mind? What do you think of Tolkien's ability to tie in references to past events in the history of Middle-Earth like he has here? And how does this description show the waning of Numenor, and, as described in the Silmarilion, of the passing of beauty into sorrow? Inferno.
• hollow - Gorel
  I was especially struck reading the chapter this time with the sense of a crumbling world of former majesty. Tolkien gives us our first view of Minas Tirith from a distance, in the rising sun, and we really see it in its former glory. Then as Gandalf and Pippin ride through the city into its heart, we realize more and more how hollow it's become. First there are the empty mansions along the streets, then the dead tree in the Court of the Fountain, and finally the empty throne. The empty throne was especially poignant after he describes the statues of dead kings, which he ties in with the Argonath.
• I like your use of the word "hollow". - Kimi
  It brings another word to mind: barren. Later in the chapter Beregond says "And there were always too few children in this city". The line of the kings has (apparently) failed; the population is dwindling; the structure of the city is ageing into decay. Even without the war against Sauron, it seems possible that Minas Tirith would eventually fall away.
• Book V, Chapter 1: More on the Pelennor. - Inferno
  Two separate points. First, as dudalb brought up (glad to see others taking the initiative!) Denethor's madness may have been a contributing factor to the delay in repairing the wall around the Pelennor. Still, why defend it at all? These fields are obviously huge, if Theoden's army and Aragorn's army and 'all the hosts of Mordor' between have amply room to fight. With the limited manpower that Gondor has, why bother with trying to defend a line so far out? What good is a wall with few or no defenders? Wouldn't it have been more practical to spend the time and resources setting up better defenses in the city itself? The second point is outside the story. I recall someone mentioning that in Letters, Tolkien states that he wrote about Numenor first, and after translating the Adunaic name 'Akallabeth' into Elvish, it came out 'Atalante'. He described this as a fortuitious coinicidence that it closely resembled 'Atlantis', or something similar. I can't recall the exact quote. In the King Arthur legends, there is a knight named Pelennor. I'm not sure if the spellings are the same or not, as I don't have Mallory's text readily accessible. Is this another coincidence, based on Tolkien's etymology, or is this more deliberate? If it is a concious choice on Tolkien's part, what meanings could it have? Inferno.
• Here ya go - Gorel
  It was on the trivia page at my site: Tolkien was troubled by a recurring dream of a great Wave drowning the land. He always woke up gasping for air, but managed to "exorcize" the dream by writing about it. Tolkien began a time-travel book in which the hero would have been present at the fall of Atlantis, called Numenor. He eventually adapted the Numenorean parts into his greater mythology. He described it as a "curious chance" that Numenorean Akallabeth, meaning Downfall, was Atalantie in Quenya, from the stem "talat" for "slipping, sliding, falling down."
• Then why defend Osgiliath as was done? - dudalb
  If you are going to fall back to a final defensive position, why waste the men and effort on hopeless attempt to hold the River Line? Maybe Denethor was
  just a poor general in his old age.
• Maybe the defense... - Steve D
  was against a smaller attack. When the big attack came they did fall back to the city, as they should have.
• Tolkien was no Von Manstein - GB
  Tolkien wasnt much for 'maneuver in the face of the enemy' (as Napoleon would put it) or using aggressive tactics on the part of the good guys (If youre throwing your forces/alliances together several days before the enemy attacks youre already at a huge disadvantage). But Tolkien just didnt write tactical savy into either side, maybe there wasnt a lot around at the end of the third age (the war game scenarios are endless and pointless, ex Why didnt Sauron launch a two pronged attack at Gondor. . well, cause you wouldnt have a final battle scene silly) but he did write some heroic situations regardless of the tactics used by either side.
• But Tolkien did discuss strategy in several places in LOTR... - dudalb
  As when Gandalf points out that Sauron was forced to change his original plans to attack Rivendell and Lorien first because of his fear of the ring. And as someone who was a officer in the British Army During WW1, I am sure Tolkien had a general knowledge of strategy and tactics.Although his experience as a company commander During the Somme offensive probably soured him on aggresive tactics.....
• The Wise Fool - GB
  Yes he did discuss basic ring strategy but not war strategy. They had little options because the were putting forces together on the run. Tolkien may have shown how soured he was to the extreme, neither side used or attempted to use earthen fieldworks (the alliance had no time and Sauron chose not to in front of his own domain. Tolkien liked storming the battlements, cavalry riding out of the front gate and open field engagements rather than trench warfare or battles of manuever. An LOTR suffers not a bit for it, battles are heroic hand to hand (archers are somewhat of a minimal aspect)
• Osgiliath is more easily defended. - Inferno
  With the line of the river, and the relatively small locale of a ruined city, there are lots of ambush points, secondary and tertiary lines of defense. Osgiliath is a logical attack point, as the bridges are there, and Anduin is narrower. Setting defenses there would also provide an early warning to the other defenders in Minas Tirith. I just wonder about the ability of Gondor to defend a wall that is miles across with the forces that they have. Inferno.
• Yeah, but... - Alnilam
  Isn't it better to keep the enemies as far away as possible from your last defence point? I mean, if they were at the second wall already, they could throw things over the walls and cause damage and death inside the city. So maybe Denethor thought that the longer he could keep the enemy away from the actuall walls of the city the better. That's just the thought of someone who has no clue about military strategy whatsoever.
• Inferno, Osiligiath was like the Maginot LIne... - dudalb
  It was a strong fortification, but in the end Sauron's forces just crossed upstream and outflanked it. Gondor did not have enough men to defend the crossing points as well as the fortress.
  A fort ,no matter how strong, that can be surrounded with no hope of releif is no fortess at all. Maybe Denethor was hoping to get Sauron;s forces bogged down in combat in the streets, a kind of Middle Earth Stalingrad, but Denethor igonored the possiblity of a crossing upstream which is what happened.
• the down-fallen - pindar
  The second point is outside the story. I recall someone mentioning that in Letters, Tolkien states that he wrote about Numenor first, and after translating the Adunaic name 'Akallabeth' into Elvish, it came out 'Atalante'. He described this as a fortuitious coinicidence that it closely resembled 'Atlantis', or something similar. I can't recall the exact quote. --This is really interesting -- because I read something, somewhere (and don't remember the exact quote either) calling the Silmarillion "the longest buildup to a pun in literary history" (ie much ado only to find that sunken Numenor's Elvish name sounds a heck of a lot like Atlantis).
• King Pellinor - Blue Wizard
  was the King of the Isles (Wales) one of the Knights of the Round Table. Before meeting Arthur, he hunted the questing beast, a task taken up by Duke Palomides after his death. He was the natural enemy of King Ban and King Lot (Lothian and Orkney), but Arthur was able to bring them together, at least temporarily, in the Round Table. His reputedly killed Lot, and was eventually killed by Gawain, one of his sons. The feud with (as White called the) the "Orkney Faction" marked one of the beginnings of the downfall of the Round Table. His son, Percival, got to see the Holy Grail in the Grail Quest. So, how do we make this analagous? I dunno. It's not hard if you try, and don't mind making huge stretches.
• Book V, Chapter 1: Minas Tirith -- Gandalf Stormcrow. - Inferno
  "'May you bring good counsel to Denethor in his need, and to us all, Mithrandir!' Ingold cried. 'But you come with tidings of grief and danger, as is your wont, they say.'
  "'Because I come seldom but when my help is needed,' answered Gandalf. 'And as for counsel, to you I would say that you are overlate in repairing the wall of the Pelennor. Courage will now be your best defence against the storm that is at hand--that and such hope as I bring. For not all the tidings that I bring are evil. But leave your trowels and sharpen your swords!'
  "'The work will be finished ere evening,' said Ingold. This is the last portion of the wall to be put in defence: the least open to attack, for it looks towards our friends of Rohan. Do you know aught of them? Will they answer the summons, think you?'
  "'Yes, they will come. But they have fought many battles at your back. This road and no road looks towards safety any longer. Be vigilant! But for Gandalf Stormcrow you would have seen a host of foes coming out of Anorien and no Riders of Rohan. And you may yet. Fare you well, and sleep not!'" What insights does Tolkien give us into Gandalf's character, both in how he is perceived, and his true nature? Inferno.
• Gandalf's humility - Gorel
  One of the things I've always found the most impressive about Gandalf is his humility (which makes him the perfect father figure for the Ringbearer). He may be gruff and impatient at times, but he hides his true power. After all, he is an angelic being sent on a mission from the "gods", and he has had to tiptoe around the arrogant authority of men like Denethor. I'd like to think he's above any real angst about being called names; Saruman is more proud of his stature ("What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll in the floor among their dogs?"). It's only now that he's been sent back as the White with more power and things are on the brink that the people of Middle-earth start to see the power behind the mask. One of may favorite lines in the book happens in this chapter, when Gandalf seems to hint to Denethor that there is a higher moral authority than lordship of a kingdom: "And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come. For I also am a steward. Did you not know?"
• Gandalf at another level - vedhed
  I think he shows Gandalf to think at a level far removed from most men. He sees the bigger picture and can set things in motion that will change events yet to come as when he says that but for him there would be a host of Mordor coming rather than riders from Rohan. I don't think he's too crazy about the whole 'Stormcrow' title because he actually takes the time to address the issue which doesn't seem like something a wizard would do except maybe when talking to a king or something. There is definitely a swagger to him though he knows just how fierce an enemy they are all about to face. Utulie'n aure! Aiya Eldailie ar Atanatari, utulie'n aure!

• He's like a doctor, isn't he? - Annael
  You only see the doctor when you need to - and therefore, the doctor is associated in your mind with pain and illness, not with the cure of same. Once you feel good again, you don't really want him or her around. He's also got that arrogance, or what comes across as arrogance - you need me, and here I am to fix what you can't.
• Good point - pindar
  And given the nature of his job, he needs that arrogance, or a thick skin at least: he goes around trying to sacrifice himself to save the world, only to meet with such cold welcomes as Grima's & Denethor's.
• Book V, Chapter 1: Minas Tirith -- Hobbits - Inferno
  In this chapter, we really get to see how Men react to hobbits for the first time. Theoden and the Men of Rohan didn't show much astonishment, as the hobbits had figured in their legends. Faramir and his men didn't display much of a reaction either. Between Ingold at the wall of the Pellenor, and Beregond and Bergil, we are given several views of Gondorians seeing hobbits for the first time. What seems to be the general attitude towards Pippin in this chapter? Inferno.
• They want to believe. - Steve D
  One thing I've noticed is that they want to believe good things about them, that they are powerful and will help them in their troubles.
• Book V, Chapter 1: Minas Tirith -- Timeline - Inferno
  In the first few paragraphs of this chapter, we are given some time information that helps tie when we are now with what happened in the Two Towers. First:
  "There had been the first ride at terrible speed without halt, and then in the dawn he had seen a pale gleam of gold, and they had come to the silent town and the great empty house on the hill. And hardly had they reached its shelter when the winged shadow had passed over once again, and men wilted with fear. ... This was the second, no, the third night since he had looked in the Stone." Second:
  "He wondered where Frodo was, and if he was already in Mordor, or if he was dead; and he did not know that Frodo from far away looked on that same moon as it set beyond Gondor ere the coming of the day." Lastly (and this one occurs at the end of the chapter):
  "At the sunrise I shall take you to the Lord Denethor again. No, when the summons comes, not at sunrise. The Darkness has begun. There will be no dawn." To me, these references help bring me back to the world of Pippin, where we had been following Frodo and Sam for all of Book IV. How does this help your reading of the book? Are there other quotes like this that help to tie the various plotlines together in time? Inferno.
• time - pindar
  I don't have the books in front of me, but when I last reread the trilogy (this summer) I admired JRRT's handling of time very much. I remember coming across a lot of "synchronizing" passages in addition to the ones you rightly point out, Inferno. The way I see it: the story Tolkien sets out to tell sets him a formidable challenge as a storyteller. Once the fellowship splits, he has two main paths to follow (Frodo/Sam and The Rest), and sub-paths to follow within The Rest (Merry/Pippin kidnapped by orcs, Aragorn/Gimli/Legolas hunting them, brief reunion, then another separation: Merry with Theoden, Pippin with Denethor, Aragorn on the Paths of the Dead, etc etc). If you were writing it, how could you solve the problem of telling multiple storylines, each of which affects and depends on the others, all of which happen simultaneously, while maintaining coherence? In the end I like his solution. Splitting the narratives throughout books 3-6 builds suspense for each. Also, in light of the ultra-rapid jump-cutting that's become so habitual in the media right now, I find the length of his attention span refreshing: he doesn't flit from soundbite to soundbite, but takes a good proper time with each narrative thread. (It just occurred to me, too, that after the relative jump-cutting in books 3 & 5, where by definition he has to shift between separated threads, the steady continuity of the Frodo/Sam sections reinforces their emotional impact: F & S are really stuck with this awful job they have to do, in these awful landscapes, plodding along as quickly -- or slowly -- as their feet can carry them. No exit.) And he keeps the disparate threads synchronized (unobtrusively -- synchronized for those who feel like following the timeline -- and I don't always want to myself) with the sorts of narrative asides Inferno quotes here.
• Like others, on my first few readings of LOTR - Frodo Gardner
  I was, well, disinterested in a detailed chronology. "Where was Pippin when Frodo and Sam were...?" was not the kind of question I was asking myself. It was enough to read the account as it was laid out and follow the events until the reconciliation after the Ring was destroyed. Though I am more interested now, I remain somewhat in a fog about the location of Frodo and Sam when Merry was listening in on the conversation with Ghan-buri-Ghan, to use an example. I think it shows a trust in the author as guide to reveal to me significant details as I need them. Yeah, Tolkien may have made some errors in coordinating events (I really wouldn't know), but if he did, it doesn't particularly bother me. On the other hand, my lack of interest may say more about me and my own personality/psychology than it does about the actual significance of a concordance of events.
• When I first read this, years ago... - Patty
  I didn't let the respective timelines bother me. But when I read it again and it became important to me to know what each set of folks was doing at a given time I believe I had access to a made up timeline someone published. Don't remember who. But obviously these statements help to point out what's going on and when.
• The Atlas of Middle Earth by Karen Wynn Fonstad revised edition 1991 - Ron Austin
  has a table on page 157
  Pathway table (T.A September 3018 through March 3019)closely follows the pathways of the characters and breaks them down to date, hours traveled mileage, miles per hour and campsite. There will be a updated edition in April of this year.
• Yes, this is helpful. - Annael
  Once the Fellowship split up and Tolkien took to following Frodo & Sam separately, as it were, I did get confused as to who was where when. I remember your first quote distinctly as being helpful to place Frodo at Henneth Annun - although I also had to do a sort of mental rewind as I read it, since in my mind Frodo was already inside Cirith Ungol. The other quote I remember was one that linked Frodo at the Crossroads to Merry with the Rohirrim, watching the sun sink beyond the edge of the growing cloud from Mordor. Or did I just make that up? But honestly, the first few times I read this, it did get difficult to keep it all straight. I finally just got out the appendices and kept my finger on the Tale of Years part, and kept going back and forth until I had it all firmly in my mind.
• Same here - Alnilam

Inferno
Superuser/ Moderator

Apr262009,4:14am

Post #39 of 65(29515 views)
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• Book V Chapter 2 Might as well sum up. - Steve D
  This is really Aragorn's chapter. It starts with him being joined by his friends the Dunedain and Elrond's sons. We admire the character of these and wish we knew more about them. Arwen sends the banner which seems to be so important in showing his kingship. Aragorn makes some important decisions which separate him, for a time, from the Rohirrim. Merry stays with Theoden and forms a deep friendship with him. Aragorn dares to challange Sauron and is successful in wresting control of the Palantir from him. He then determines to travel the Paths of the Dead to call the spirits of his ancestor Isildur's long dead allies to join the fight against Sauron. The people of Rohan don't like this and try to change his mind, especially the Lady Eowyn. We stop to admire Eowyn's beauty and wonder about the things that seem to torment her heart and mind. Aragorn stays resolute and leads his people on the Paths of the Dead. We experence a scene of intense fear, though the eyes of Gimli the Dwarf. Aragorn is successful and leads the Dead away to do battle with the forces of the Dark Lord. We gain a deeper understanding of Aragorn's character and strength of will and see him becoming a king.

• Good work, Steve! - Idril Celebrindal
  I thought that you did a nice job of leading the discussion and raised a number of good points about this chapter.

With caffeine, all things are possible.

• Yes, it does showcase Aragorn this chapter. Thanks for a great job, Steve!... - Patty
  now, since you did such a good job, pick another chapter from the ones that are left, will you?

The Hunger Site

• Thanks for an interesting chat this week, Steve! - pindar
• Well done Steve. Good job all round. - Kimi
• Post of the Week. - Steve D
  There were many great posts this week. But I'd like to award the title of Post of the Week to Bhruic for his explanation of Tolkien's evocation of the terror of the Paths of the Dead, relating it to his own experiences.
• Book V Chapter 2 So What? - Steve D
  Aragorn and his party lead the Oathbreakers to the Stone of Erech and there Aragorn recieves their pledge of support in the fight against Sauron. They all then ride off at a furious pace to do battle with the Dark Lord's forces. Strange events. Very strange. Why do you think Tolkien included them in the story? What do they add to our understanding and appreciation of Aragorn and the other characters?
• I like the answers below. One more thing: - Kimi
  Tolkien said that LOTR is about death and immortality. In both the Sil and LOTR we see the results of Men attempting to subvert the Doom of Men (i.e. death). The wraiths give us a vision of the horror of "undeath", and we see another version of this in the Oathbreakers. It's not as a result of attemping immortality in their case, though you could say it was the fear of being killed that led them to break their oaths. But the result is the torment of being dead without being released from Middle-earth. It's a subversion of the natural order of things, and is horrific.

• Life after death. - Steve D
  Thanks Kimi. I also think it's interesting that people in LOTR seem to spend so little time thinking about life after death. I guess the Elves have a clear understanding of their situation. Hobbits never seem to think about this kind of question at all. I don't know how the Men are thinking.
• Just as an added observation - Aiya
  It gives verification that Aragorn is who he claimed to be & that he has power even over the dead. Impressive stuff.

• Reinforcement - Aelric
  Not only to the reader, not only to the people of Gondor, but even to the Dead. Gilmi said it best (I do not have the text so I think it was Gimli) "...even the Dead obey him. It is not for naught the the Enemy fears him..."

• Good point, Aelric - Steve D
  I'm sorry I haven't been saying hi on the main board since I've been spending most of my online hobbit time here.
• Proof and History - docrodg
  Aragorn is the direct descendant of the Kings of Numenor, in fact, a descendant of the "Faithful" (read the Akkalabeth). This is a high claim and difficult to prove. His actions proved this. In addition the ride along the Paths of the Dead and the pledge are important in that Aragorn had to use his will to hold the others together against the fear of the dead. This shows the power within him as one of the Numenoreans who have been faithful to the Valar. It also proves the Honor and dedication those who know him have for him. The history of Middle Earth is riddled with Oaths, which are very powerful (The Oath of Feanor is an example), and the times they are broken there are dire consequences. Interestingly these oaths tend to be broken by the Atani (men) and not the Eldar. Normally the consequences are indeed horrid, but here they turn to good. Aragorn has the power to release the dead from their bond IF they fight the Dark Lords forces, fulfilling that oath. Thus those who had betrayed the hosts of the Eldar and Men, helping the Dark Lord are turned against him. Their reward for the oathbreaking had been to live as wraiths, the very creatures Sauron uses for terror and domination. The heir of Isildur uses his power to reverse that and use the very instrument of Sauron against him, denying him the victory of the Pellennor Fields which he surely would have won if Aragorn had not done this. This is poetic justice.
• It's also plot contrivance - Ufthak
  I say again - Tolkein needed a way to neutralise the threat of Umbar, otherwise the book could not continue as realistically as otherwise. This not only provides proof of Aragorn's status, but also alows him to ignore the Corsairs, which otherwise would surely have come up the river and turned the tide of the battle.

• The Corsairs have a history prior to this - docrodg
  The Corsairs have a prior history that involves Aragorns lineage. Tolkien wrote parts of the history involving the corsairs prior to LOTR, in which the Numenoreans fought them as part of their battles for Middle Earth. But upon the rise of the Numenorean kings that were faithless to the Valar the corsairs became less of a hindrance and eventually were mingled with the Numenoreans after the fall of Numenor (Thus the Black Numenoreans). The Faithful however remained to fight them. Isildur received a pledge at Erech for the help of a people to neutralize this threat to Gondor, but the oath takers proved faithless. Aragorn uses this to defeat the long time enemy of Gondor with the help of the oath takers. This is one of those parts of LOTR that is a glimpse of the past of Middle Earth that appear (like the Story of Beren and Luthien or Earendil) and not just a plot contrivance to do away with something.
• Maybe it's the other way around. - Steve D
  Maybe the Corsairs of Umbar exist mainly to give the Dead someone to scare.
• thereby allowing . . . - Annael
  that really cool moment when Aragorn and Eomer meet in the middle of the battle, "though all the Hosts of Mordor lie between."

• Book V Chapter 2 Fearsome Journey Underground - Steve D
  Aragorn and friends leave Dunharrow and enter the underground Paths of the Dead.What are some of the things Tolkien does to make us feel the immense fear that they have to face?(BTW have you noticed how many of the most intense parts take place underground? In the Hobbit too.)
• I think Bhruic has his finger on it... - Patty
  if you thought a bunch of dead people were following you (if you could see them or night) this would be sufficient to evoke massive fear. Add the darkness and the spookiness is complete.

The Hunger Site

• Fear through Gimli. - septembrist
  Tolkien does a great job of using Gimli's fear and translating it to the reader. It really is effective when the normally intrepid dwarf is reduced to jelly by the journey. It reminds us of our nightmare experiences where we cannot move or speak. But for the strength and will of Aragorn, Gimli would never have survived the ordeal.
• I agree that if Gimli was not afraid in Moria then there's definitely a good reason why he's scared in the paths of the dead - Zsinj16
  If I entered the Mines of Moria I'd be scared out of my pants!! I mean, that place is so cryptic and ominous that it seems that when you read about it,you can almost feel the presence of an ancient unspeakable evil lurking somewhere, and maybe even imagine, like I did, some restless, tortured souls screaming in agony and horror way off in the distance. The feeling that I felt when I read about Moria was so creepy it's something I can't explain. I also somehow enjoyed feeling scared to death like that.:) Even the name Moria sounds like a deep, dark, cryptic, powerfully evil, fear-inspiring place to me! I've even had nightmares about being caught in that place aloe, and hearing the drums and war cries of orcs marching closer and closer!
• What gets me... - Steve D
• i agree - Aiya
  Gimli has shown us that he is unafraid in so many places (namely Moria) that for him to be so afraid of the Paths of the Dead shows us that, yes, this is something out of the ordinary and to be feared.

• Good point about the horses. (Aragorn and Gimli too of course) - Steve D
• I think so too. - Steve D
• Darkness and the unknown - Bhruic
  I think that the darkness and the unknown alien environment of someplace rarely visited, like an underground cavern, naturally scares people, and Tolkien did a good job using this device. Add the fact that you know these angry, deadly spirits are following you, but can barely be heard--and you've got a good batch of fear.

• great points, Bhruic. - Steve D
• Book V Chapter 2 What Did She Look Like? - Steve D
  We know that Eowyn is just about the most beautiful woman in Middle-earth. When men see her they drop whatever they were doing in order to rapsodise over her beauty.

• The Rohirrim... - docrodg
  To find out the answer about her looks in general (Scandnavian?) I would say to turn to "The Languages of Middle Earth" by Ruth Noel. In the dissecting of the languages Tolkien invented there are answers to that. The Rohirric language is indeed derived from a Northern Europe dialect, which one I do not recall and I am at work not home.
• While she has the fair hair of the Rohirrim, - Kimi
  I think Eowyn might otherwise have quite a "Numenorean" look about her.

• I always imagine the Rohirrim as Scandinavian - Annael
  We're told she's "slender," but I imagine she's actually fairly strongly built. She looks slender because she's tall, at least 5'10". Very pale blonde. I imagine her facial features are also strong. Good cheekbones, strong chin. She's not a delicate beauty, she has the kind of bone structure that will endure and make her a striking-looking woman well into old age. And this, as pindar says, would allow her to pass as a handsome, beardless, thin young man if you didn't look closely and weren't expecting a woman.

• I always imagined her - Aiya
  as more Scandinavian.. blonde, strong, tall, and very impressive.

• Hmm, this Scandinavian - Draupne
  doesn't look like that :-(

• maybe because - Aiya
  all we usually see of Scandinavians (on TV or movies anyway) are the tall blonde types... Who needs reality? :)

• Reality is overrated ;-) - Draupne
  I wouldn't mind being long, strong and blonde though...

• who wouldn't? :) - Aiya
• When I went to Denmark & Norway - Annael
  whenever I used a women's restroom, I usually felt very, very short (I'm 5'5").

• Me too. Heh... - Sangarunya
• I'm not quite sure - Draupne
  that I really want to know what you did in the women's dressing room....

• androgynous - pindar
  We're told that she's blond and pale, a real Nordic ice queen. Aside from those details, I see her as tough (stockier/more solid than Arwen) and as androgynous as a woman in T's world can be. She manages to pass for "Dernhelm" quite well, looking like a pretty boy, and only the fact that she's not built like a quarterback could give her away.
• Did she really fool them? - Steve D
  BTW I'm glad people found this an interesting topic. I've been worrying about that all day.I wonder if they were really fooled by her. Elfhelm seems to be in on the secret.
• The disguise only had to fool the King or her brother - Ron Austin
  The horseman that she rode with were probably aware of both her and Merry but could avoid acknowledging her unless discovered by the leaders of the Mark.

• Elfhelm would have been in so much trouble... - Steve D
  if she had been killed. It seems to me. Since the Rohirrim don't lie he couldn't say that he didn't know that she was with his group.
• Basketball player.... - Bhruic
  For some reason when I read it for the first time, I imagined her looking like a women's basketball player I know at college. She's tall, blond, and slender, but she's very powerful and could probably kick my ass. She's fine featured though, so that goes against what pindar and Annael said.

• I was also thinking athletic. - Steve D
• Book V Chapter 2 Romance and Responsibility - Steve D
  On the way to the Paths of the Dead Aragorn's party passes through Dunharrow. There they visit the Lady Eowyn. When Eowyn learns that they plan to take the Paths of the Dead she tries to convice Aragorn to change his mind and ride to war with the Rohirrim. When he continues his course she then asks if she can ride with them. Aragorn refuses her and reminds her of her duty to her king and people.

• here's lookin' at you, kid - pindar
  I agree with the points the rest have been making on this. I only have one thing to add, just a little analogy that struck me: Casablanca. Eowyn's infatuation for Aragorn strikes me as very similar to youthful Ilsa's for her husband (and he's also a political man of action fighting against evil in his way), a combination of awe, respect, desire to do good, and desire to escape. If Aragorn had fallen for her, it could have been a real Casablanca story: she'd eventually discover true love and realize what her mistake, but too late, and have to choose between love and happiness with Faramir/Rick (good god, can you picture Bogart emerging from the woods of Ithilien?) and duty and self-sacrifice with her husband.
• hhhmmm interesting - Steve D
• Remember that Grima Wormtoungue also worked on Eowyn - Ron Austin
  Wormtoungue used the spell on Eowyn as well as Theodin.

• Hero Worship - Oveila
  Eowyn's feelings tend more to hero worship than to romantic infatuation, I believe. She admires Aragorn, and wishes she could emulate him. She wishes she were the lost King leading armies into battle. She is brought up in a society where warriors are respected and women are servants- of course she wishes she could be him! Her infatuation is merely a result of this idolization.
• Infatuation and fantasy - Annael
  I think Eowyn sees a mix of things in Aragorn. He's someone who inspires instant trust and loyalty and a desire to serve him in just about every man who meets him. It makes sense that the equivalent feeling in a young noblewoman would be a desire to be his "helpmeet." She's grown up among princes and kings, but he is something more, and she senses it right away. She is ambitious and wants out of her small life as Theoden's nursemaid. Also, she's young and has never been in love. I've no doubt that between Aragorn's showing up at Meduseld and their second meeting at Dunharrow, she had built herself a nice fantasy about marrying him and getting out of Rohan forever, and convinced herself it was love. When Aragorn spurns her and rides away, it's not her love that's wounded, it's her pride and her dreams of escape. Hence her next move.

• What she said. - Kimi
  Nicely put, Annael.

• Book V Chapter 2 Isildur's Authority? - Steve D
  Aragorn then explains to Legolas and Gimli the meaning of the Paths of the Dead. King Isildur placed a curse on a group of Men who had pledged to help him in his war against Sauron but failed to do so. Aragorn, as Isildur's heir, by taking the Paths of the Dead to the Stone of Erech would be able to call the spirits of the oathbreakers to follow him and fight against the forces of the Dark Lord.

• Isildur - Eonwe
  they were the Oathbreakers, so their own oath had given Isildur authority over them

• well, it wouldn't be much of a curse otherwise, would it? - Annael
  I think this is a mythic element that has nothing to do with any kind of authority. A curse's power comes from the belief of the cursed. Obviously the oath-breakers did believe that because they broke their vow to him, Isildur had the "authority" to curse them.

• Isildur didn't doom them - Blue Wizard
  they did it to themselves. The phantom army that assists Aragorn to victory aren't called "The Cursed"; rather, they are "The Oathbreakers". That is no accident of nomenclature. They had sworn a solemn oath to support and assist Isildur, which they broke. Isildur did not condemn them to a spectral existance - he had no such power; only Illuvitar would have such a power. Isildur pronouncement of their doom might be viewed alternatively as (i) simply foretelling (as foresight definitely was a gift or power which those of his line possessed) that they had doomed themselves to wander the earth as spectres until they fulfilled their oath, or alternatively (ii) in one of those examples of the Christian, and particularly Catholic, religious themes deeply hidden in LOTR, Isildur is rather like a confessor who declines to grant absolution to unrepentant sinners: "Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven". But, in either view, it wasn't really Isildur who doomed them; they did it to themselves.

• Catholic point of view. - Steve D
  That makes a lot of sense, Blue. Speaking of the Catholic point of view, I thought it was important that the Oathbreakers were people who didn't do good but also didn't do evil (fight on Sauron's side). So in Catholicism they would be in Purgatory not Hell, and therefore subject to possible redemption. (As I understand it, not being an expert.)
• Interesting point, but... - Steve D
  Why did it only happen this one time?

• I think this is just gratuitous mysticism - Ufthak
  We have no trouble accepting that in Middle-Earth there are Rings that make you invisible, that the line of Elendil can remain unbroken for however many centuries it was, and that there are dirty great spirits of fire which wnader about in abandoned mines (although a large proportion are not prepared to accept that they have wings - I prefer my self-formed "vestigal wings of shadow" theory). Why not a King having the power to curse the living which affect them after they're dead. Feanor declared a doom for himself and his sons, and that had an effect, didn't it?
  It's just a narrative device to further prove Aragorn's power as the rightful heir, and also conveniently nullify the threat of Umbar, which otherwise would have caused a tactical problem for the resolution of the story.

• Book V Chapter 2 Man vs. Maia - Steve D
  The next morning Aragorn tells Theoden that he has resolved to take the Paths of the Dead. They part company with Merry staying with Theoden's group and Aragorn, the Dunedain, Elrond's sons, Legolas, and Gimli taking the Paths of the Dead. The people of Rohan don't seem very happy about this.

• I wouldn't say Aragorn "defeated" Sauron - Annael
  Sauron couldn't control Aragorn's will, that's all. Not be be wondered at in the heir of Elendil, who was not swayed by Sauron either.

• I'm with Inferno and septembrist: it's not just will, - Kimi
  it's the fact that Aragorn has the right to the palantir. This presumably attunes the palantir to him, and makes it possible for him to wrench it from Sauron's control. I think this still shows great strength on Aragorn's part; I don't think a weak king would be able to.

• Some thoughts. - septembrist
  First, Aragorn is the "lawful master of the Stone" and he was able to wrench the Stone to his own will. So, Sauron was bested but in a limited sense. Only the lawful master could have wrestled with Sauron and it helps that Aragorn was the heir of Isildur. No other man could have done the same thing. Even so, Aragorn was greatly weakened.
• The nature of the palantiri. - Inferno
  The palantir were gifts from the Elves of Eressea to the line of Silmarien in Numenor, from whom Elendil eventually came. I may be mistaken here, but I believe that they were made by Feanor in Aman.

• Book V Chapter 2 Merry Knighted - Steve D
  Merry's love for Theoden grows and he asks to be knighted by him. What do you think the relationship between Theoden and Merry adds to the story?
• He's not actually knighted - Kimi
  Sorry to split hairs! But he pledges his service to Theoden and is made an esquire, not a knight.

• Give a USAer a break! ;) - Steve D
  We don't know so much about such things over here.
• Ha! I'm sure that by morning - Kimi
  there'll be half a dozen rebuttals of that comment from your fellow citizens.

• nah- I'll agree about that - Aiya
  My knowledge of knights is pretty much limited to King Arthur :) And the knight from the Caunterbury Tales- who is a verray, parfit gentil knyght of course (would you guess I'm taking Chaucer this term?) :)

• Didn't he say... - Steve D
  or Pippin say, later that they were "knights of Gondor and the Mark"?That's why I said he was knighted but reading it again it does sound more like "esquiring", like Kimi said.
• I think so - Aiya
  I don't have the books with me right now- but I think he meant something like representatives for Gondor & the Mark, regardless of how he put it.

• Book V Chapter 2 Arwen's Banner - Steve D
  From Elrond his son's bring advice to Aragorn to "remember the Path's of the Dead."From Arwen the Dunedain bring a banner that she has made. This seems very important. Any thoughts?
• Paths of the Dead and more questions. - septembrist
  I wonder whether Aragorn was thinking of the Paths before Elrond's reminder or whether the reminder prompted him to go that way. I have a feeling it was the latter since Aragorn replies he must be in great haste before he goest there.
  Arwen's banner continues Aragorn's claims to the kingship and emboldens him to eventually to utilize the Palantir and take the Paths of the Dead. It also signifies that he and Arwen may never meet again if Sauron is victorious - thus, an uplifting and sobering gift.
• The banner, also . . . - Annael
  is what he shows to the Dead as proof of who he is.

• Yes! - Kimi
  Apart from being one of the few mentions Arwen gets in the text of LOTR, I think the banner is very significant.

• yes again - mal
  Sounds corect, as aragorn would get to marry arwen when he became king...
• Book V Chapter 2 Elladan and Elrohir - Steve D
  With the Dunedain are Elladan and Elrohir, the sons of Elrond. There is something I find very mysterious here. They seem to be presented as if they were Men not Elves. Legolas does not run up and embrace them as brother Elves, as I would expect him to. And he talks about them as if they were Men. I really don't understand it.
• Curiously enough, I was just thinking about them - Idril Celebrindal
  Get out of my mind, Steve!

With caffeine, all things are possible.

• So they rescued their mom! That's great news! - Steve D
• There's a reason for that: they're not Elves. - Kimi
  Ah, one of my favourite Tolkien shock-quotes, though I've only used it of Arwen in the past.

• Thanks Kimi - Steve D
  But don't you think Tolkien's quote applied only after she choose to marry Aragorn? At this time I think you have to call her and her family elves. Besides her brothers never abandoned their elven rights, at least as far as I kknow.
• Well, Elrond is always referred to as "half-elven" - Kimi
  Even though he chose Elvish immortality. So I do read that as meaning Arwen and her brothers counted as half-elven even though they (and Elrond) were more than half elvish by descent.

• princess shortage - Steve D
  Thanks Kimi. That was interesting. I think it might be good if they also married into Humanity. But that's one problem, there seems to be a shortage of princesses that they might marry.
• But what about Celebrían? - Alnilam
  Wouldn't that make them at least 3/4 Elvish? I'm just speculating here.

• Yes, in terms of "blood" the children of Elrond - Kimi
  are more than 3/4 elvish. But Tolkien does seem to feel that they are still something distinct from either race.

• that wouldn't a problem for legolas because he wants a comunist republic - Gagarin
• good question - pindar
  I don't have the books in front of me (so what's my excuse for posting? :) ) but I remember them keeping company mostly with the Dunedain. The chapters on Rivendell in Fellowship show them just returning from orc-hunts with the rangers (and more mysterious information about them -- about them avenging their mother's torment in the dens of the orcs -- anyone know more about this, or is it just a mystery?). Perhaps they blend in too well?
• They are of the same blood. - docrodg
  I don't have the books here right now but I recall the Kings of the Dunedain are related to Earendil [in the Silmarillion], (hence Aragorn wearing the star brooch as well as the jewel on his head). This shows that there is a very distant realtionship between Aragorn and Elrond. Thus the sons are actually kin to them as well. Aragorn is also raised in Rivendell almost as a son of Elrond, thus giving them a tight bond.
• Orc hunting - Steve D
  Thanks pindar. I found the orc hunting mention very interesting also. I wish we were able to learn more about these two guys.
• On Celebrian - Forgil
  On Celebrian (the mother of Elrohir and Elladan):

• Thanks, Forgil - Steve D
• Book V Chapter 2 Finding Friends - Steve D
  This chapter opens with an exciting scene. King Theoden's party is overtaken in the dark by a group of unkown horsemen. The Riders, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli draw their weapons. Merry determines to die for the King if needed. But the horsemen are Dunedain from the North and the two soons of Elrond!This is our best close up look at the Dunedain. What do you think of them?
• I detect a parallel. - Inferno
  And maybe I'm reading too much into this here, but there is this statement in Appendix A (in reference to Gondor helping Arthedain defeat Angmar):

• They're very impressive. - Kimi

Inferno
Superuser/ Moderator

Apr262009,4:15am

Post #40 of 65(29548 views)
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• Book V, Chapter 4 - The Siege of Gondor: Summary - Frodo Gardner

• Thanks, Frodo. Your questions and responses... - Patty
  are always carefully thought out!
• Thanks Frodo G. good work. - Steve D
• Post of the week? - Frodo Gardner
  I know that some of you like to select a post of the week, but I must confess that I am not willing to single out any particular post. There were many thoughtful offerings presented. I can't believe we included references to Bob Jones University and the Orangemen while discussing Tolkien - go figure! If one had to select on the basis of intelligent participation over the entire week, then I think Blue and Kimi should receive co-Posters of the Week. But Kimi gets to keep the entire milkshake to herself that she earned for working Estel into her answer to the despair thread! I had a great time reading your reponses after I returned from my mini-vacation. Hopefully, my next chapter doesn't fall during a holiday week!

• Yummy! Thanks! - Kimi
  *Slurp, slurp*. Lots of great questions, FG.
• Book V, Chapter 4 - The Siege of Gondor #12: "Fall into the nothingness that awaits you" - Frodo Gardner
  Gandalf, in confronting the Lord of the Nazgul at the Gate, utters the above phrase. I am now curious - is this some sort of Middle-earth metaphysical nihilism awaiting Sauron and his servants? Is Tolkien drawing upon some doctrine within the Roman Catholic church? Whatever the case, Gandalf seems certain in his knowledge of what grim future (or lack thereof!) awaits the Dark Lord and his Black Captain. It reminds me of the Joan of Arc movie that I saw not long ago, where Joan calls to the English commander, "Come here, that I may dispatch thee to hell!"
• Very interesting discussion, TORNsibs...I was not aware.. - Patty
  of this aspect of Catholic doctrine, and as written I must agree with Blue and Kimi. I understand Steve D's position...eternity does seem a harsh punishment but you are given a lifetime to make the choice of seperating yourself from the love of God.
• Oh, I like this question - Blue Wizard
  In the largest sense, LOTR is about death and immortality. The Nazgul are, in the end, just men. Men who have achieved a false immortality and cheated death through the device of the Rings which turned them into wraiths. But, that immortality is indeed false, for the death of their human bodies and the passing of their truly immortal souls beyond the bounds of Arda is their natural fate. Tolkien carefully avoids in the mythology of Middle Earth any mention of the fate of human souls beyond that broad statement, but Gandalf's characterization of the Nazgul's ultimate fate is perfectly congruent with the mythology of the Silmarillion. Morgoth was cast by the Valar into the void outside of Arda, apart from it - and it would seem from the imagery of Gandalf's statement that it is the ultimate fate of the Nazgul to join him there.
• What was Tolkien's personal belief? - Steve D
  Does anyone know what Tolkien's personal beliefs were? Especially if he believed that evil people would spend eternity in Hell? I've never read about him saying anything on this, but I would guess that he didn't. The disolution of evil spirits seems to be a substitute for Hell. And then Elves and Dwarves are reincarnated. The fate of Men (and Hobbits) is left vague. So it seems to me that he is avoiding the idea of Hell in his story. (Also Mordor, a Hell substitute, is torn down and eventually the land restored to goodness.) As Aragorn said to Eomer, "Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men." So it seems to me that Tolkien would not have one worldview in his books and another in his everyday life.

• I am quite certain . . . - Blue Wizard
  that your guess is wrong - Tolkien would have most definitely believed in hell. But, as you say, his mythology is principally concerned with the Elves - and thus while it may treat their Last End, that of Men is a mystery to the Elves. But, insofar as there are references to the fate of Men's souls such as Gandalf's statement to the Witch King, they are perfectly consonant with the Catholic doctrine which Tolkien embraced. Gandalf's description of the Witch King's soul ultimate end as a fall into the nothingness is congruent with the doctrine that one of the principal attributes of the torment of the damned in hell is the knowledge of their eternal deprivation of the presence of the glory of the blessed.

• Thanks Blue, but... - Steve D
  I'd like to see someone come up with a quote of his that shows his belief in eternal damnation. I'd be very surprised. And some Catholics don't believe in eternal Hell, I understand not being an expert or a member of the Catholic Church.

• I was about to agree with Blue's earlier post - Kimi
  when he posted his latest. I agree with that, too. Tolkien was a devout Catholic and quite a traditional one; he speaks in Letters of his concerns about changes taking place in the church. To find out what he believed, it's therefore reasonable enough to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. This is easily found, but here's a section that speaks of Hell: IV. HELL 1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self- exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell." 1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire," and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!" 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. 1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
  Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."
  1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":
  Father, accept this offering
  from your whole family.
  Grant us your peace in this life,
  save us from final damnation,
  and count us among those you have chosen." _______________ I'm not a Catholic, btw.

• I'm still waiting... - Steve D
  for an explicit statement by him about the subject. A couple points: He doesn't just not mention eternal damnation, he goes out of his way to avoid it. If it's good for Satan to be cast into a lake of fire why do Sauron and friends just dissolve? Isn't it possible for a Catholic to believe that evil people are sent to Purgatory, while Hell is left empty? (This was a bone of contention that led to the splitting of Protestants and Catholics.)

• I find it hard to respond, because - Blue Wizard
  virtually every question is premised on an assumption that is just simply not true. "He doesn't just not mention eternal damnation, he goes out of his way to avoid it." Well, I don't agree that he doesn't mention eternal damnation. It is pretty clear that that's what happened to Melkor, and it sure sounds to me like that is what Gandalf is describing to the Witch King. And while were at it, Shagrat and Gorbag's description of the kind of hi-jinks that the Nazgul engage in, as well as the Witch King's threat to Eowyn sure sound a lot like Hell to me. But, even leaving those things aside, Tolkien did make a deliberate effort to avoid any explicit mention of religion in LOTR in particular: From Letter #142:
  "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like `religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism." The story and the symbolism of Frodo and Sam's journey to the Cracks of Doom at the heart of Mordor is nothing less than a into Hell itself, and one very close to the Dante's Inferno version to boot. "...why do Sauron and friends just dissolve?" Who said they just dissolve? Galdalf is quite clear that Sauron would survive, though diminished as a spirit of malice, and there is his statement to the Witch King which precipitated this whole discussion as well. And, in the case of Saruman, the wisp of mist that looked to the West, but was rejected (by the Valar, obviously) is clearly indicative of the survival of his spirit. Tolkien doesn't explicitly say what happens to those spirits, but it is a vast presumption, contradicted by the text itself, to assert that they "just dissolve". From Letter #131:
  "...Of course there was and is all the Arthurian world, but powerful as it is, it is imperfectly naturalized, associated with the soil of Britain but not with English; and does not replace what I felt to be missing. For one thing its `faerie' is too lavish, and fantastical, incoherent and repetitive. For another and more important thing: it is involved in, and explicitly contains the Christian religion.
  For reasons which I will not elaborate, that seems to me fatal. Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary `real' world. (I am speaking, of course. of our present situation, not of ancient pagan, pre-Christian days.)... In the cosmogony there is a fall: a fall of Angels we should say. Though quite different in form, of course, to that of Christian myth. These tales are `new', they are not directly derived from other myths and legends, but they must inevitably contain a large measure of ancient wide-spread motives or elements. After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of `truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." From Letter #269:
  "With regard to The Lord of the Rings, I cannot claim to be a sufficient theologian to say whether my notion of orcs is heretical or not. I don't feel under any obligation to make my story fit with formalized Christian theology, though I actually intended it to be consonant with Christian thought and belief, which is asserted elsewhere." "Isn't it possible for a Catholic to believe that evil people are sent to Purgatory, while Hell is left empty?" The simple answer is "No." There is a much more complicated answer than that as well, to which the ultimate answer is still "No." Some of the other posters have said it, but it bears repeating. You are perfectly free to believe that Hell exists or doesn't exist, but it is nothing but an exercise in self-delusion to think that Tolkien, a self-described devout Catholic, didn't believe in Hell. He did. (Come to think of it, if the folks at Bob Jones University are correct in their assertion that Catholicism is a Satanic Cult, then he belives in it even more fervently now than he did in life.)

• Who thinks Catholicism is a Satanic Cult? - Ufthak
  And why? Seems to me they might have a kind of turbulent life in front of them...

· intended as a joke, sorry - Steve D
I was thinking of Aragorn and Arwen and maybe Gimli and Galadriel.

• I'd think it would be the other way - Annael
  It seems to me that someone who says over and over that they are a practicing Catholic would not bother to list the ways in which they agree with the creed, but WOULD mention it if there was a specific point on which they didn't agree.
• I knew you'd say that :-) - Kimi
  IMO (and I think Blue's also, though I don't presume to speak for him), by his explicit and oft-repeated statements that he was a devout Catholic and followed Catholic doctrine Tolkien was saying that he accepted the official statements of Catholic belief, which include the Catechism. He didn't need to paraphrase any sections of the catechism to state that belief. If I couldn't find any explicit statement by JRRT that Jesus is the only-begotten Son of God and offers redemption to a fallen world, I nevertheless would not doubt for a moment that JRRT fervently believed that.
• LOTR is not anti-Jesus it is anti-Hell. - Steve D

• Surprised at the quote or at the belief? - Blue Wizard
  Tolkien described himself as a "devout Catholic". Notwithstanding that there are some people who would describe themselves as Catholics yet profess not to believe in Hell, (and if you questioned them closely, I suspect that you would find that it isn't that they don't believe in Hell, rather that they have a different concept of what it entails than say, Dante described) I absolutely guarantee that for someone raised as a Catholic at the turn of the Century (Tolkien, not me! I'm not that d*mn old!!!), he would not be describing himself as a devout Catholic without also embracing the central tenets of the religion. We're not talking about sneaking a bite of hamburger on a Friday....we're talking about the fundamental, core concepts of sin and redemption. Take my word for it, Tolkien believed in Hell and eternal damnation, as well as Heaven and eternal salvation, even if he didn't mention either one explicitly in his writings. I mean, he describes Frodo's stay in Elvenhome in one letter as a purgatorial experience: he would never have used THAT term unless he believes in Heaven and Hell.
• Book V, Chapter 4 - The Siege of Gondor #11: "Grond crawled on." - Frodo Gardner
  The Black Captain, sensing the vanishing valour of the city under siege, chooses to put forth his strength in attack, especially upon the Gate of the city. Out comes a huge ram to assault the strength of the Gate - Grond! After a few attempts, the Gate is broken! I thought it would be of interest to quote the portion of The Silmarillion that mentions the original Grond. Fingolfin the elf king challenges Morgoth at the gates of Angband: "Fingolfin... drew his sword Ringil, that glittered like ice.
  Then Morgoth hurled aloft Grond, the Hammer of the Underworld, and swung it down like a bolt of thunder. But Fingolfin sprang aside, and Grond rent a mighty pit in the earth, whence smoke and fire darted. " The passage goes on to tell how the earth was eventually all pitted about Fingolfin as Morgoth kept missing his aim, a demonstration of the fearsome power of Grond, as well as Fingolfin's ability to dodge the blows. The Gate of Minas Tirith was no elf, but an immovable object. Not good enough, unfortunately, to overcome an irresistible force of the nature of Grond and in a flash of searing lightning, the Gate shatters - Minas Tirith is now exposed! I have no question in mind, but feel free to add comments.
• Some time ago, someone asked the question - Blue Wizard
  of what scene in LOTR you were most looking forward to on the silver screen, and this was the one I chose. It may be one of the most "cinematic" in the whole book: the huge battering ram dragged forward through the ruin of the siege by monstrous beasts, crushing the odd orc here and their in its inexorable advance, the great trolls wielding it, the Nazgul king on his great black horse, that even his own armies recoil from in fear and horror, the spells, the shattering of the gate, the confrontation with Gandalf as he enters the city....and then the rooster crows and the horns of Rohan as if in answer. I suppose that a lot of viewers would just see the whole thing as a big cliche - the cavalry arrives just in the nick of time like a thousand other movies - but I get chills just thinking about it.
• me too, also - Steve D
  the charge of the hill-trolls in the next battle will be really cool.
• the nadir of the battle - Annael
  This is the worst moment for Minas Tirith. They're hopelessly outnumbered, the Gate has been shattered, and the Witch King is about to enter the City. but wait . . . .!
• Was this the original climax? - Steve D
  I get the feeling that this was to be the climax of the story. When The Witch King faces Gandalf at the gate. That is the Ring should have been destroyed at that point. But then Tolkien thought of soome more cool stuff he wanted to happen, like Eowyn and Merry vs. the Witch King, the Mouth of Sauron, and Pippin vs. the Troll
• I find it interesting - Aiya
  that the Morgoth was powerful enough to lift the original grond, showing us quite how powerful he was. Especially in contrast to the 2nd Grond, which crawled along, with the help of umpteen dozens of orcs & men. Not really much of a point here- just an observation.
• Book V, Chapter 4 - The Siege of Gondor #10: Gloom, Despair and Agony on Me - Frodo Gardner
  Deep dark depression, excessive misery
  If I had no bad luck, I'd have no luck at all
  Gloom, despair and agony on meeeee...
  (song from "Hee Haw") Related to the presence of the Lord of the Nazgul, but yet somewhat distinct, is the increasing foreboding, sense of doom, hopelessness and despair that grips Minas Tirith during the siege. At first, men laugh at the array of catapults assembling beyond the walls. Soon, however, they are busy quelling fires as the Enemy wastes no time attempting to break the formidable fortress with stones flung at the walls but sends fiery missiles into the buildings beyond the walls (the ol' alley oop strategem - highly effective; why wasn't it ever thought of before? - hee, hee, hee!). Then, as if fire weren't enough, a grim hail rains upon the city - the heads of the fallen! This is one gross out moment that I'm hoping will be subdued in PJ's films. And where is the leader of the city? He is locked in deeper despair than his subjects and is useless. The Lord Faramir, if he were ambulatory, would undoubtedly mingle with the men to give them hope and encouragement, but he has been wounded with a dart from the Nazgul. The people mourn for what seems the certain death of their beloved Faramir and Denethor, too, mourns (prematurely). The Gondorians sink so far into gloom and despair that they must dig a tunnel up to have a view from the bottom of the depths of despair (my wife would be pleased to see an expression from Anne of Green Gables included in this analysis!). The hope of the people was in Rohan - yet Ingold, who had been at the approach from Rohan, reports that even if Rohan comes, "it will not avail us." There is a host of men and orcs now occupying the approach from the North, barring the way for rescue. Is their despair appropriate (I didn't ask "understandable") - should they give up hope? Why, or why not? If you somehow work the unscrambling of this name into your answer, you get a bonus (some undiscovered galaxy named after you? 15% pay hike? let's settle for a virtual chocolate milkshake!): "leest" Oh, and if you want to discuss the uplifting presence of Gandalf and Prince Imrahil (who doesn't get enough good press, IMO), this would be an appropriate time to work it in.
• Despair and action - GB
  Despair is appropriate, but its the action that you take in your despair that counts. The Nazgul obviously were able to cause despair even in the hearts of good men. . er, people. That they should rally despite their despair (supernatural in origin or not) is critical. Tolkien even credits the Southrons/Easterlings as being ". . . grim in their despair". Theoden felt a sense of darkness or despair and rode on to meet the Dark Captain, and Merry cast himself down then fought against the Nazgul despair and rose to strike the Dark Captain. The hard road: despair but dont give in to it.
• Speaking theologically - Kimi
  (!) despair is never appropriate, though it is certainly often understandable. Despair can lead to the abandonment of seeking after good, because of the conviction that it is no use. Aquinas says that it can even cause one to stop desiring good: "Despair implies not only privation of hope, but also a recoil from the thing desired, by reason of its being esteemed impossible to get. Hence despair, like hope, presupposes desire; because we neither hope for nor despair of that which we do not desire to have. For this reason, too, each of them regards the good, which is the object of desire." Denethor's despair leads to his madness, his suicide, and almost to his murdering Faramir. Despair has an opposing virtue: hope. And hope is one of those "things unseen" that are on their way to Minas Tirith: Estel! Aragorn's childhood name means hope. Names are never accidental in Tolkien's work.
• "Pride and despair" - Steve D
  Gandalf said about Denethor. It was because he thought he knew everything that he gave up hope.
• Book V, Chapter 4 - The Siege of Gondor #9: The Lord of the Nazgul - Frodo Gardner
  Jumping ahead - Faramir's gone to Osgiliath, tension mounts, time passes, aid from Rohan is desperately needed but still far off and then the attack comes on the outer defenses of Gondor. The passage of Anduin at Osgiliath falls and things do not go well at the walls of the Pelennor. Yes, there is an overwhelming host amassed by the Enemy, but the chief weapon is not the might of Sauron's army, but the fearsome presence of the Black Captain who causes men to despair even before he arrives. If you were in Minas Tirith and did not know about his soon-to-be demise at the hands of Merry and Eowyn, what counsel would you give about how to combat the Lord of the Nazgul? What words of hope could you give? Could you give any? And how do you think you would fare as a soldier of Gondor in these desperate times?
• Never assume that invulnerability = automatic success - Jester_rm
  Although by the "prophecy" he can't be *slain* by the hand of man, that doesn't mean you can't cause him alot of grief. He's already been unbodied once (at the ford outside Rivendell), therefore can be hurt, if not killed. First target the beast he's riding. It's definitely not unkillable, and removing that will severely limit his mobility and ability to effectively command or receive information. Second, since his main weapon is fear, the highest priority should be to find a way to show that there is not much to really fear...show that he can be hurt, if not killed. Have 40-60 archers/crossbowmen waiting with Gandalf at the gates with pitch covered arrows/bolts. As soon as he shows himself after the gates fall (pretty egotistical to be the first through), turn him into a flaming undead pincushion. That should severely cramp his style, or at least his wardrobe. Even if nothing else, it should prove a great distraction, allowing Gandalf an opportunity to get in a good shot at him, maybe even disbodying him again. Third, repeat. If possible, never let troops get within 30 feet of him...use archers to pick off any mortal lieutenants that come near him, further restricting his lines of communication. He is only really effective in the forefront, where his minions (if not himself) are vulnerable. Even a good commander can't command an army that size effectively if he is the only officer there. Did you hear about the dyslexic, agnostic, paranoid insomniac who stays up all night wondering if there really is a Dog out to get him?"

• Have courage and pass the arms - GB
  I would counsel my men to have courage and try to kill his mount ("and the Dark Lord took it and nursed it with fell meats . . " that still makes me chuckle) and then keep your distance from the Dark Captain. Death-wish as it may be, as commander, you would have to take the Dark Captain on yourself or with a group. Hopefully armed with an elfin blade and in coordination with Gandalf, and fight as best you could.
• While we're on the subject (sort of) - Frodo Gardner
  does anyone else think that the little speech by Gandalf giving several names or titles for the Sorcerer King was just a bit over the top? While Denethor is generally not the most sympathetic of characters, I do sympathize with his pique as Gandalf rattles on about something that he was all too familiar with. "King of Angmar long ago, Sorcerer, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgul, a spear of terror in the hand of Sauron, shadow of despair." All right, already, give it a rest!!! We've already been given insight into that by the description of men's reactions and some of the other accounts along the way. As an editor, I would have advised Prof. Tolkien to cut with the windbag routine from Gandalf at this juncture - there were pressing matters at hand and words should have been fewer. Just my opinion...... :-)
• Book V, Chapter 4 - The Siege of Gondor #8: "A traitor may betray himself." - Frodo Gardner
  Gandalf utters this pronouncement in regard to Gollum and his schemes and is one of the means Tolkien uses to hint at the demise of Gollum and the means of destruction of the Ring. I'm sure that you have noticed that Tolkien placed hints of coming events within the dialogue of his characters - usually concerning events more near at hand than the end of the Quest, but sometimes for further reaching events. This particular statement interests me not only as a foreshadowing of what is to come in this story, but as a truism. Do you find the statement appropriate in "real" life? Do traitors sometimes do unintended good in their attempts at treachery? If possible, cite examples from literature or your own experience.
• Well, Japan... - Steve D
  attacked Pearl Harbor, brought the USA into World War Two, and insured the victory for the Allies.
• Book V, Chapter 4 - The Siege of Gondor #7: "Nonetheless I do not trust you." - Frodo Gardner
  Gandalf is not one to mince words. Part of the reasoning in sending Frodo on his desperate Quest is revealed by the lack of trust in Denethor's restraint. As a point of curiosity, do you think Gandalf and Elrond would have sent the Ring to Minas Tirith if Faramir were now the Steward? Another point of curiosity - given the evident animosity between Denethor and Gandalf, why did Denethor tolerate Gandalf's presence in the city? Did it suit his purposes, or was he afraid of what would be revealed by an order for Gandalf's ouster? Or perhaps, is it a complex of emotions and motives at work?
• Sympathy for Denethor - Mr Kimi
  If Faramir had been steward he would have had access to the palantir and Sauron would have made similar attempts to poison his mind. Whether Faramir would have resisted this better than his father we cannot know. What we should not forget is that Denethor was a great man trying to do his best for his city. Using the palantir for information was a sensible thing to do, but it cost him his sanity thanks to Sauron's efforts. The result was tragic, and would have been more tragic but for Pippin and Gandalf's efforts.
• I don't think they would have sent - Kimi
  the Ring to Minas Tirith, for the reasons Pindar said. As for why Denethor allowed Gandalf into Minas Tirith: he probably thought there might be some advantage to himself in what news Gandalf might bring; both personal news regarding Boromir, and news relating to the War.
• even if - pindar
  Faramir were the Steward, I still think there's no way Elrond & Gandalf would have sent the Ring to MT. As I recall, the Council came to the conclusion that the Ring simply had to be destroyed once and for all, that anything else was just putting off the day of Sauron's victory. There might have been more temptation to send it to MT, but the end result would have been the same.
• Book V, Chapter 4 - The Siege of Gondor #6: "He has long had your heart in his keeping." - Frodo Gardner
  Consider the exchange between father and son here. Denethor accuses Faramir of disloyalty (he didn't use those exact words, but there can be little doubt as to his meaning). Little is seen of affection from father to son, yet Gandalf later tells Faramir, "Your father loves you, Faramir, and will remember it ere the end." Is Denethor's displeasure really directed at Faramir here? If there is an undercurrent, what is really the core issue?
• I find Tolkien's portrayal of Denethor's family - Kimi
  fascinating. We talk a lot about the back story of LOTR, meaning the vast mythology that underpins it. But there's also a complex back story regarding this family, with hints in the Appendices. Denethor resented "Thorongil" (the incognito Aragorn) as a young man; I think he sensed (rightly or not) that his father thought more highly of this Thorongil than of him. He showed his own older son such obvious preference that he was setting the scene for Faramir to resent Boromir; it says much for the characters of both brothers that this never happened. He seems to have loved his wife as much as he was capable of, but he was unable to keep her from being so wretchedly unhappy that she pined away. Denethor is a complex, proud and jealous man. I think he largely ignored Faramir when Faramir was growing up, paying attention mainly to point out his shortcomings. This no doubt made Faramir, more thoughtful and clever than his brother in any case, susceptible to the influence of the mysterious Mithrandir who appeared in Minas Tirith from time to time, and was obviously a man of great wisdom. But Denethor's nature makes him resent this influence. Denethor loves Faramir in his own way, though even in this love we see his pride and jealousy, as he attempts to be united with his son in death. Part of his tragedy is that he never allowed himself to realise this love, let alone express it, before it was too late.
• Faramir's idependence. - septembrist
  I think Denethor is irked by Faramir's independent thinking and actions. I think he liked Boromir's absolute loyalty and deferment to his (Denethor's) judgments and decisions.
  Like many fathers, Denethor probably wishes that his son would follow his wishes more often.
• This is a very complex exchange - Blue Wizard
  He has this tremendously complicated realtionship with his two sons. He should have a more natural affinity for Faramir, but instead seems to "favor" his elder son Boromir, who is quite unlike him. He clearly blames himself for Boromir's death, and it is a heavy blow to him. Back when Pippin first encounters him, he seems a broken old man, gazing at the shards of Boromir's horn. But, this is not the first time that he has been shaken by death of a loved one; in the Appendices it is noted that his personality seemed to change significantly when his wife died. If I recall correctly, she sort of withered in this citadel of stone, far from the green lands of her home. I can think that he blamed himself for this as well..perhaps it is the point at which he began to wear his armor in secret under his robes, even at night. His description is reminscent of nothing so much as a penitent wearing a hairshirt in secret as a constant penance and reminder of guilt. And, of course, the apparent imminent death of Faramir later on seems to be the trigger, more even than his vision in the Palantir of the approaching Black Fleet, for the despair which ultimately is his undoing. Again, he clearly blames himself. No, I think that the anger here is all self-directed and merely displaced toward Faramir.
• Yes, it seems like that. - Steve D
• I think guilt is a big part of it. - Annael
  He must know on some level that he's always favored Boromir and neglected his younger son, and has only himself to blame if Faramir welcomed a father or mentor relationship with Gandalf to compensate for the one he wasn't getting at home.
• Book V, Chapter 4 - The Siege of Gondor #5: "Gandalf himself, was troubled, even afraid." - Frodo Gardner
  During the debriefing of Faramir before Denethor, Gandalf is visibly shaken. Why?
• I always wondered about this. - Annael
  Did he think it would be possible for them to sneak past the Black Gate somehow? Was that his plan, back in the days when he intended to accompany Frodo all the way? Did he consider Shelob a much worse threat - or was he thinking of the Witch King in Minas Morgul? more questions, no answers.
• I think that - Stumpy
  he was afraid that Gollum would betray them, or the Witch King would feel the ring, maybe.
• Cirith Ungol. - septembrist
  Gandalf says later that his heart almost failed him when he heard the name Cirith Ungol. He seems to think that Frodo's choice could be extremely costly and that the treachery of Gollum would be the cause.
  However, I don't think he believes that Sauron has the Ring, not yet.
• Faramir says a little later - Kimi
  "Indeed I see what you fear. But the darkness is not due to their venture." It seems that Gandalf may fear that Sauron has the Ring and is mounting a triumphant advance.
• Book V, Chapter 4 - The Siege of Gondor #4: Faramir's first return - Jim Dandy to the rescue! - Frodo Gardner
  Go Jim Dandy! Go Jim Dandy! Okay, okay! It's really Gandalf. I love the description of his approach, "..a flash of white and silver coming from the North, like a small star down on the dusky fields." In this brief skirmish between Gandalf and the Riders, we get a glimpse of the power that Gandalf, as a rule, conceals. Especially telling is the point when a Nazgul wheels towards Gandalf, but the wizard raises his hand and from it a shaft of white light stabs upwards. The Nazgul retreat at that point. So, is Gandalf playing outside of the rules here? Do I recall something about a directive not to match force with force? What do you make of this incident between Gandalf and the five Nazgul?
• Was it actually - Stumpy
  a physical attack? It may be metaphor for opposing the dark riders with light.
• the rules - pindar
  If there's a directive not to match force with force, I don't think Gandalf's actions necessarily break it. He scares the Nazgul off with that shaft of light, but doesn't necessarily injure them: it seems to me a more obvious & sensational version of the "Gandalf is here" signs that he claimed to have left all along the track in Fellowship. Even if he were violating a directive -- well, if the likes of Cap'n Kirk can get away with it...
• Ah, but this is the new, improved Gandalf! - Kimi
  There's a passage in Letter 156 of 1954 that covers this well. Quoting in part: "The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned [...] Of course he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater [...] He is still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an 'angel' - no more violently that the release of St Peter from prison. He seldom does so, operating rather through others, but in one or two cases in the War (in Vol. III) he does reveal a sudden power: he twice rescues Faramir." This whole letter is one of my favourites, btw.
• so where did he see this directive... - cocoa daffodil
  of not putting force against force?? was it from one of tolkien's letter?
  ************************************************
  I will walk 500 miles
  And I will walk 500 more
  Just to be the Sam who walked 1000 miles
  With you into Mordor
• It's from Appendix B: - Kimi
  "They [the Istari] were forbidden to match his [Sauron's] power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force or fear."
• Book V, Chapter 4 - The Siege of Gondor #3: Faramir's first return - A contrast of response - Frodo Gardner
  Pippin and Beregond are perched looking out over the Pelennor, chatting quietly. Faramir is on Beregond's mind. Pippin relates that Gandalf seems anxious for his return. Their solemn intercourse is suddenly broken by a numbing, shuddering cry from above - Black Riders of the air! The power of the Riders is grown from the time when Pippin had first heard their cry back in the Shire. They pursue men on horses. Another fell screech forces Pippin to fall back, panting like a hunted animal. Faint and seemingly remote comes the sound of a trumpet. It is the call of Faramir. Beregond, for love of his Captain and Lord, thinks not of the danger but springs off into the gloom to assist. Pippin, on the other hand, has all he can do to creep forward and look out at the scene below him. What do the responses of Pippin and Beregond reveal about themselves? Are they representative of their races (hobbit and Numenorean descendant)? And what manner of man is Faramir to inspire such devotion in the noble and true heart of Beregond?
• Faramir resists the Nazgul - Mr Kimi
  I notice that Faramir has some resistance to the Nazgul's terror as well. This is probably something to do with strength of will or love of his companions & city (or both). Aragorn at weathertop was able to do the same, probably for similar reasons. There is probably something directly inspiring about this ability, ie Faramir is able to urge his men on in the face of the terror, and this is part of what Beregond is responding to, albeit from a distance.
• They're heroes - Stumpy
  stronger than ordinary men inside.
• thinking of others - Annael
  Beregond is a soldier trained to disregard his own feelings and respond to the call of the horn. His love for Faramir strengthens that. Although they are not trained in the same way, Pippin's and Merry's love for Frodo and for Theoden strengthen them when they have to face the Nazgul at Weathertop, at the Ford, and on the Pelennor. at this particular time, Pippin has no other person to think of first, and his own fear is unchecked - until he thinks of Beregond, and rallies. I think too that the Nazgul's power has grown. Merry is also nearly sick with fear on the Pelennor, and he wasn't at Weathertop even though he'd been recently hit with the Black Breath.
• Book V, Chapter 4 - The Siege of Gondor #2: "Denethor sat - Frodo Gardner
  in a grey gloom, like an old patient spider, Pippin thought;" If Denethor knew that he was described in such a fashion, would he have been taken aback? indifferent? pleased? What is your reaction to him? Is he heroic? tragic? pitiable? vile? What is he?
• It was a very apt analogy - Blue Wizard
  and I'm not entirely certain that Denethor would object - although he would point out, as he did to Pippin, that he is merely doing as all lords do - the analogy to a spider might be applied to many others as well, including those that we regard as "the good guys" - Elrond or Galadriel for instance. Is there not reference, by the men of Rohan, perhaps, to the dangers of being trapped in the golden webs woven about Lorien?
• The spider simile reminds us of Shelob - Kimi
  who was described only a few chapters ago. Spiders are scary, dangerous things. I can't help but feel sorry for Denethor because he's lost his son. But I certainly don't like him. I think Steve makes a very good point about Denethor's attitude; he no longer differentiates between Gondor and himself. "L'état, c'est moi", as another ruler once said. He feels that he's sacrificed health and happiness for Gondor, and so he has. He takes a bitter pride in the knowledge; pride is his besetting sin, as it was Boromir's. The greatness of Gondor is his greatness. He is King in all but name, and he has always seen his beloved Boromir ruling after him. He knows who Aragorn is, and he has no intention of surrendering his rule "to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart." He specifically says that he doesn't want the King to return; he wants things to go on as they have all during his life. When he can no longer pretend to himself that it's for Gondor's good rather than his own pride that he rejects the returned King, he suicides. He lacks the humility that endears Aragorn and Faramir (and Théoden, in a different way) to us. He's wise and brave, but not a nice man.
• About his wisdom - Stumpy
  He makes some foolish decisions, so is he really as wise as all that? Of course, most of them are after he's snared by Sauron.
• slightly OT - humility - Annael
  our minister said this weekend that humility came from the same root as humus, and that to be humble was to be "fertile soil." Prideful Denethor never allowed anything new to grow in his heart, did he?
• pride - pindar
  Great comments. Also, I remember one reviewer of Tolkien (sorry, can't for the life of me remember who) commenting aptly that Sauron "owes much to Milton's proud Satan" -- ie the "better to rule in hell than serve in heaven" guy. Tolkien seems consistently to come down on pride and praise humility.
• I agree, but it strikes me as quite deliberate - Blue Wizard
  Clearly, Tolkien embraced Aquinas's characterization of Pride as the "Queen of all Vices", a vice apart and the ultimate source of all the others, substituting for it Vainglory in the usual hierarchy of the Seven Deadly Sins. Pride is inevitably at the center of the failings of Tolkien's most compelling characters in LOTR and the Silmarillion.
• And many others in great literature. - Stumpy
• Wow - pindar
  Very interesting Aquinas reference, Blue Wizard! One of the many authors I haven't read yet...but you draw a great connection.
• Denethor - Kingfisher
  Denethor would not have cared what anyone -- leastwhile a hobbit -- thought of him. He might have laughed grimly if he knew Pippin's thought, and agreed. Denethor is pitiable when we see him with his dead son's broken horn on his lap, but he is not a gracious leader. His condescension and self-absorption in this time of crisis make him a foil for just about everyone -- Theoden (with his kindness and great spirit), Faramir (with his intelligence and bravery tempered with care for those around him, not the least his father), Gandalf (see Faramir; in fact, Faramir and Gandalf are explicitly compared to each other), and of course Aragorn, who looks into the Palatir but it not ensnared by the lidless Eye. It's important to note that Tolkien could have taken the easy way out and made Denethor and Boromir more similar, but this would have been to o neat. They are both trapped by tools of the enemy, but with different effects -- one moves through madness into dispair, while the other has a madness come upon him and lusts for power.
• That's a great point - Stumpy
  He is a good foil to compare to the other leaders.
• his egotism - Steve D
  One thing that really struck me reading this chapter is on page 111 of my paperback copy:"He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is done."It's as if everything was about "me" for Denethor. I mean, there were other people involved too. Not just him and Sauron.
• Good point - Stumpy
  Denethor also wants to 'take Faramir out' with himself. The height of egotism.
• Book V, Chapter 4 - The Siege of Gondor #1: Getting us oriented - Frodo Gardner
  The chapter opens with the words, "Pippin was roused by Gandalf." A short run of sentences later, the opening passage concludes with, "Pippin said no more." (Ahem...no smart comments from any of you Pippin bashers about being glad for his silence!)The entire sequence is a scant 155 words long. Tolkien accomplishes much with relatively few words. We are back in Minas Tirith, picking up from the end of chapter one of book five without missing a beat. It is gloomy and the air is heavy; a candle is lit, though it is past the hour of sunrise. One is reminded of Gandalf's cryptic words about no dawn made at the end of the first chapter. There is a short give and take between Pippin and Gandalf. While a bit of levity is provided by the hobbit's rueful disregard for the adequacy of the food set before him, it also emphasizes to the reader that this is a city under siege and food must be rationed. The mood is less than cheery - Gandalf is his usual irascible self, while the normally upbeat hobbit utters in self-pity, "Why did you bring me here?" The mood in the chamber reflects the broader mood of the city. And, though this does not complete the list of all that Tolkien conveys here, we are quickly reminded that Pippin has offered himself in service to Gondor. Excellent storytelling uses few words to say much. I think the opening passage is just one demonstration of Tolkien's skill as storyteller. When I first read the passage, and in subsequent readings, I did not say to myself, "Wow, what a great job the author did of setting the scene!" I was just there in my mind. It is only as I reflect on my experience apart from the story that I stand in admiration of the incredible skill at work in the telling of this tale. For those who write either as hobby or as a profession, I'd be interested to hear some comments about Tolkien as a storytelling adept. And for those who are "merely" enthusiasts for his work, jump right in and give your reaction to the dear professor's abilities. If you relate it to this chapter, that would be a bonus. :-)
• My reaction to this passage - Annael

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• Book V, Chapter 5 - The Ride of the Rohirrim - Summing Up - Blue Wizard

• Another great job leading, Blue. Thanks so much!!! - Frodo Gardner
• Lots of rich food for thought. Thanks, Blue. - Kimi
• It was great Blue... - Steve D
  how you volunteered for a chapter, maybe less popular than most, and put a lot of work into making it interesting. Thanks. Also the contrast between Theoden and Denethor, important point, I think.
• Very interesting. Unfortunately - fan14
  I can't really post until I catch up with you guys. Not having read the books for quite a while and never having read the Sil, I'm at a bit of a disadvantage. The posts, however, are always excellent.

• I've always wanted to post in here, - vedhed
  but I'm not sure what I'm supposed to say. How do these discussions work? "No hero is immortal 'till he dies."
  -W.H. Auden

• It's quite simple, really - Ufthak
  Whoever's running the discussion reads the chapter in question again and again and then posts various moral and story-related questions. I and others then express our opinions on these questions, and Blue Wizard tells us we're wrong. <:-)
  No, that's harsh and untrue. There are interesting debates, but I often come out feeling overwhelmed by the fact that a load of the people in here know great reams of stuff that I don't. It often descends into religion too, which is a subject I try and steer clear of if possible. And people like Blue and Gorel are some of the people with masses more knowledge than me.
  Besides, my answers often tend towards the "this happened because without it the story wouldn't work" approach, which I don't think is quite what they're looking for.
  Don't be scared - if a little orc like me can participate, I'm sure you can.

• No, you're completely wrong! - Blue Wizard
  I thought you'd like that. Comments like "it had to happen that way because otherwise the story wouldn't work" are perfectly appropriate. I say that only because I made pretty much that kind of comment on the "why not just send the eagles to Mordor" thread a couple of days ago! But, really, any input here is greatly appreciated. There is pretty much no such thing as bad input. To be honest, I don't get much gratification to responses to questions like "Great Post!" Even folks, especially Idril, who spend a lot of time researching and preparing the discussion questions are supplying a lot of information for the sole purpose of triggering discussion. Even if it's been many years since you've read the books, your own perspective of "my impression was...." is valuable. And (assuming that you've checked the FAQ first and you still don't really know the answer) questions about "what really happened here" or "what did X mean when he said that" or "who was Y, referred to in some poem" are interesting to all of us. In fact, one of the most interesting discussions we had here recently was when F.G. Jr, who is nine-years old, responded to a number of questions from some of us ....er.... more mature...no, I guess we're not more mature, just older dammit... TORNados about his impressions of the book as a first-time reader.

• Me and Annael - Gorel
  Me and Annael were talking about the format, and whether we could change it to address some of the things you're talking about. One idea was to have the discussion leader put all her leading comments and questions out there on Monday. I know I sometimes avoid bringing something up for fear of beating the leader to the punch. And sometimes someone will post something I'm interested in on a Thursday, which doesn't leave me a lot of time to think about it. And of course, Friday is basically a no-discussion day on TORN. Patty even had the idea of posting questions on the calendar before the week started. One idea I had for an experiment, since we have some open chapters, was to do one with no leader at all. Just let everyone know what chapter it is and declare a free for all. Sometimes I'm afraid that the leader format can be something of an impediment. Sometimes a leader will pose questions that get mostly a survey type response. Sometimes a leader will provoke a fuller response, but not really join in in the ensuing discussion. And in general, people don't bring up topics that the leader doesn't cover. I'm just saying what I've noticed. Last time I was a leader, I tried to just bring up things I noticed, without asking too specific a question, but I don't know how much difference that made. I myself just have trouble keeping up. I don't know how much of it is personality and how much is my education, but I feel compelled to research what I post. Which takes time. As opposed to arguing over the movie or bringing up some random thought (like the fatherhood thing). And lately I've just been trying to get to some other books I've been wanting to read. Really, we should have enough people in here that if at any time a few are on hiatus it shouldn't be a big problem. Why we don't I don't know. Maybe because TORN's more focused on the movies. Maybe because it's just culturally more focused on socializing. Maybe it's the board format, which makes it hard for any discussion to get big. I do know that it's deflating to post something and not get much of a response, Blue.

• I'll drink to that - Kimi
  I spend more time than might be apparent thinking up discussion points when I lead a chapter, and the most gratifying part is seeing some real discussion generated by it, be it "scholarly" or simply from the heart. A dozen "Great posts!" is nice, but far less satisfying. I seem to recall the odd drive-by saying something along the lines of "You shouldn't discuss that, it's boring/it's obvious/it's been revealed to me by divine insight." That, I would say, is a rare example of a "bad" post on this board. Oh, and regarding religion: it's hard to avoid it when discussing the works of a profoundly religious man who said that he tried to make LOTR reflect his beliefs. I think that generally the RR manages to be remarkably civilised and tolerant when this touchy subject comes up. But I can easily understand anyone's reluctance to participate in those particular threads. Thank God that modern politics don't tend to come up in RR discussions!
• Yeah. I also wish I could participate more. - Alnilam
  But there's a lot of backup research that has to be done, and a whole chapter discussion is a bit overwhelming, so I tend not to post much.
  I guess I'll pick one of the threads each week and work on that. That should be a start.
  And the fact that the Sil is finding its way accross the Atlantic is good too. ^_^
• Reading Room Lite - Steve D
  I've only read the Sil once and never Tolkien's letters or forgotten tales, etc. When I volunteered to lead a chapter discussion I just took the book and told the story until I came to a question that seemed like it might be interesting and asked it. That seemed to work ok.
• Book V, Chapter 5 - The Ride of the Rohirrim #7 - Prose styles - Blue Wizard
  But seriously, folks... We see some very significant changes in the tone and style of the prose in this chapter. It starts out with a very personal tone, describing Merry's experience, feeling very much like "Master Bag", as Elfhelm calls him in jest; shifts to a more dispassionate reportage of the progress of the army, the meeting with Ghan-bury-Ghan the reports of the scouts and the ordering of battle, and then the soaring, epic prose describing Theoden's charge. It is often noted that there is great difficulty in translating Tolkien from English because of the very different manners of speech that he puts into the mouths of his characters, but here we see some very significant variations in narrative style, all within a single chapter. How does this change in narrative style affect the tone of the story as you read? Do you even notice it, or is it imperceptible to you unless you are really looking for it? Can you think of other examples in the text where there are very significant changes in the prose style in LOTR and how they affect the tone of the story for the reader?
• The style changes are immensely important... - Hmpf
  to the effect of the book. I'm reading 'Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn' by Tad Williams right now, and it's good, but the style is always the same, a kind of ordinary narrative style (sorry, can't put this better), which makes even the most crucial or dramatic moments feel kind of 'normal'. Which is of course what Tad Williams aims at - MS&T is not *meant* as an epic like LOTR is, I think. But anyway, it made me realize how much the style changes in Tolkien's work influence my emotional response to the story... Tolkien has this larger-than-life effect at some points of the story...
• Different prose styles - Morwen
  Somewhere in the appendices Tolkien explains that different styles of writing were used to indicate the different dialects and modes of speech used in various parts in Middle Earth. He explains that the people of Gondor, for instance, spoke the Common Speech more formally than the Hobbits of the Shire.
• The style changes... - Patty
  noticeably from the light-hearted beginning (at the party) to the obviously heavier, almost biblical-style writing later on. A combination of reasons, I would guess, is responsible for this, not the least of which is the difference between the lifestyles and speech of the hobbits from any of the big people.
• very noticable - Steve D
  I think the epic style used to describe the battles really stands out. It is clear that Tolkien is talking from a different point of view here, perhaps looking back from the future or down from heaven, sort of.
• Book V, Chapter 5 - The Ride of the Rohirrim #6 - How 'bout them Rohirrim?!? - Blue Wizard
  WHOO HOO!!!! OK, the scholarly approach seems not be be attracting many comments, so I thought I'd give this approach a try today.
• Never mind the Rohirrim: - Kimi
  How 'bout them horsies?
• Well, be fair... - Ufthak
  It's not as if this is a particularly interesting chapter. There's no wizards or fighting - just a bunch of people on horses finding their way through a wood and a cross-dressing shield-maiden.

  <:_x002d__x0029_>

• It's also a short chapter. - GaladrielTX
  I always end up reading our chapter for the week late on Sunday nights, and I'm constantly checking how many more pages there are because its getting late (not because of boredom). Last Sunday, however, I got an early start on it, and it was disappointingly short! Grrrrr!
• I'd give it about 20 seconds in the movie. - Steve D
  Seriously. I'd give it and "The Muster of Rohan" together about 5 minutes. The only thing movie watchers need to see is Theoden leading his people off to war, with Eowyn and Merry sneaking along. The Wild Men could be left out, even the fact that the road is blocked and they took another way is not important. Well just my opinion, maybe a rant.
• It must be inconvenient with all that long hair - Draupne
  Riding with your hair waving behind you sure looks nice, but those knots you have to deal with afterwards *ouch*
• Also: if the wind comes from the wrong direction... - Hmpf
  you get all that hair hanging in your eyes!
• Ha!, but seriously, Blue... - Patty
  Please don't think that because a question doesn't attract a lot of comments that it hasn't provoked thought. By the time I get to read the questions,after having looked over the chapter, usually what I want to say has pretty much been covered. Plus my Tolkien knowledge is just not as great as yours and many others here. And, I know there are many shy lurkers who have benefited, as I have, from what the reading room has to offer. So, keep up the good work!
• This question was inspired by - Blue Wizard
  an old joke, which I originally heard in this particular version, but which I assume is retold with suitable variations around the country: "A group of scientists at Georgia Tech have been working on creating artificial intelligence programming for supercomputers, and their recent efforts have proven remarkably successful. They have developed a computer which can carry on a conversation with a person that is indistinguishable from a conversation with a real person. The new program is so adaptable that, given suitable input, it can tailor its discourse to the interests and even intelligence level of the person it is talking to. Unlike earlier efforts, where the user posed questions to the computer and the program framed suitable responses, this computer will actually initiate the conversation. All that is necessary is to give some very basic information to the computer, such as the persons, age, sex, occupation and IQ. Testing the program locally, the engineers tried out three subjects from the Atlanta area, chosen completely at random. The first entered the necessary information, including his IQ of 175. The computer then commenced a conversation on theoretical physics and metaphysics, starting with Steven Hawking's question: "Why is the universe as it is, and why does it exist at all?" The second followed, entering his IQ, which happened to be 100. The computer asked about the weather, and then it engaged in a discussion of current events and politics. The third subject then finished the test. His IQ was only 65, which was at the lower limits of the computer's programming. After processing for a moment, the computer eventually formulated something it could discuss with someone of such limited intelligence: "HOW 'BOUT THEM DAWGS! WHOO HOO!""
• This was unexpected and rather difficult. - Gorel
  There was some scattered clapping, but most of them were trying work it out and see if it came to a compliment. :)

• Ha! Very clever :-) - Kimi
  Not a random quote, Ufthak. Very well-chosen, in fact.
• ;) - Gorel
• I spy a random Tolkein quote... - Ufthak
• way cool!!!! - Steve D
  I think every teenager is going to have posters of Eowyn and Eomer on their walls.
• What about them? - Annael
  I see them as sort of a cross between Vikings and American Plains Indians.
• Horned feathers? - Draupne
  Or feathery horns? ;-)
• Dress like Vikings, ride like Sioux - Annael
  you know, one with their horses, love making war.
• I get some rather alarming - Draupne
  pictures in my mind now. I've read to much Western Comics and "How did the Vikings live" books I think ;-) But as long as the horned feathery helmets are left out...
• I always think - Stumpy
  of horse lovers as nomadic for some reason.
• That's the toughest one yet! - Stumpy
  They love horses, sing a lot, keep their promises, are good fighters with beards and stuff, probably a lot of fun at a keg party.
• They have beards? - GaladrielTX
  Where'd you get that? Thanks for the welcome below. :o) *Hug*
• Uh oh! - Stumpy
  Did I get them mixed up with female dwarves?
• Book V, Chapter 5 - The Ride of the Rohirrim #5 "Like a god of old" - Blue Wizard
  I'm getting a little out of order here, but there is a wonderful passage that essentially ends this Chapter: "Fey he seemed, or the battle fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his veins, and he was borne up on snowmane like a god of old, even as Orome the Great in the battle of the Valar when thw world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan brust into song, and they sang as they sleq, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City." There is so much packed in this short passage, that one could spend an entire week on it alone. It is wonderful prose for one thing, perhaps one of the finest and most evocative passages in the whole 1000+ pages of the Trilogy. But beyond that, it speaks the the entire mythology that underlay LOTR - a mythology that is merely hinted at in these books - a quarter century would pass before the rest of the world would even have an inkling (no pun intended) of what Tolkien had in fact invented privately in the decades that preceded LOTR's publication. And, this mythology is multi-layered. When we examine the Silmarillion, we find out who Orome is, and how the ride of Theoden might remind one of it: "And Orome, tamer of beasts, would ride too at whiles in the darkness of the unlit forests; as a mighty hunter he came with spear and bow, pursuing to the death the monsters and fell creatures of the kingdom of Melkor, and his white horse Nahur shone like silver in the shadows. Then the sleeping earth trembled at the beat of his golden hooves, and in the twilight of the world Orome would sound the Valaroma his great horn upon the plains of Arda; wherat the mountains echoed, and the shadows of evil fled away, and Melkor himself quailed in Utumno, forboding the wrath to come." And, yet, there is perhaps the hint that Theoden, in his very resemblance to Orome, would fail to conquer of his own account: "But, even as Orome passed the servants of Melkor would gather again; and the lands were filled with shadow and deceit." The layering of the mythology comes not only in the recalling of Orome, but in a similar comparison to another failed assault: "Then Fingolfin beheld (as it seemed to him) the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Fochallor his great horse and rode forth alone and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Orome himself was come; for a great madness of rage was upon him so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. Thus he came alone to Angbad's gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once more upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to come forth in single combat. And Morgoth came." And, so, like Fingolfin before him, Theoden found himself (in the coming chapters) overmatched by a foe beyond him, crushed to the earth as was Fingolfin, and ultimately perished; though in either case this did not mean the end of the battle. I'm not sure that I can quite put this in perspective for some of you. I read LOTR for the first time around 1965 or 1966, and first in hardcover - only when I bought my first Ballantine paperback a year or two later, with Tolkien's famous preface, was I even made aware that he had invented this mythology, for which there was "no hope" of publication. Many of you are excited, practically breathless with anticipation, over the upcoming films - imagine if you will waiting (for a little over a decade in my case - for a quarter century for some) for the Silmarillion to be published to fill in some of this backstory and mythology! Anyway, my questions are: 1. Orome is referred to as a god here, as opposed to one of the Valar. Is this a deliberate adoption of a Rohirric POV, as opposed to a Numenorian/Gondorian POV toward the mythology of Middle Earth? 2. To what extent does Theoden's valorous ride parallel Fingolfin's assault on the gates of Angbad; and how does it differ? 3. What does it add to the story to have references to matters that, while well thought-out by the author as elements of an older history and mythology (the Pukel Men, the Woses, Orome, etc...), particularly in this chapter for which we have a tremendous volume and richness of these references, when these are (as of the time of publication at least) likely to remain permanent mysteries, and perhaps never revealed to the reading public? 4. We have seen the repeated theme of singing in LOTR. The Elves, and Tom Bombadil in particlar, sing as naturally as talking, and we find from the Silmarillion that the theme of song has a deeper significance. But the songs so far have been songs of creation in the mythology, songs of wonder in the case of Tom, and frequently songs of longing, regret and sorrow for a passing world in the case of the Elves. But the Rohirrim sing as they slay, with the joy of battle. What, if anything, do we make of this stark contrast?
• Singing in battle - Kimi
  Here's a relatively modern example: In WWII, one of New Zealand's battalions was the Maori Battalion. In the old tradition of Maori fighting, they sang and danced a haka as they went into battle. (Haka is often translated as "war dance"; an over-simplification, but apt enough in this case.) I remember hearing an interview with Lord Mountbatten, who had witnessed this at first hand. He said that it was an utterly awe-inspiring spectacle. I've never seen a haka performed in anger, though I've certainly seen many performed in a serious, reverent way, and it is indeed impressive. I would hate to be on the other side.
• The older history - Kimi
  that was a mystery to us "more mature" readers adds to the sense of realness of Middle-earth. This is a world with not history but pre-history. More prosaically, it gave the author a chance to give a public voice to a small part of the mythology that was so dear to his heart.
• Theoden and Fingolfin - Kimi
  I'd never thought of this parallel before; thanks for pointing it out. An important difference, it seems to me, is that Fingolfin rides against Morgoth "filled with wrath and despair". Fingolfin's challenge to Morgoth was hugely brave and heroic, but he knew it was no more than a gesture. Theoden, it's clear from many of his remarks, doesn't expect to survive this battle, but it's not despair that drives him. He has no fear at all for his personal safety, but every concern for the survival of Rohan and Gondor. I sense no wrath in his going to war, and certainly no despair. He knows that he's doing the right thing, after being under Saruman's (via Wormtongue) spell for so long.
• Great insights, Blue - Gorel
  It makes me wish I had something to add to it.
• That sums up my feelings, too! - Kimi
  Nice post, Blue.
• Wow! - Annael
  1. Yes, this may be reflecting the Rohirrim mythology rather than the Numenorean/Eldar cosmology. I imagine the Rohirrim had never had direct contact with the Valar and did not realize that Gandalf and Saruman were Maiar. So "the gods" to them were more remote, not beings you could actually talk with. This could also be a small error on Tolkien's part, not quite as bad as the "express train" simile employed in the first chapter. In both cases he got a little carried away with his description of the action. I don't fault him for that as the language is so wonderful. 2. I think you answered that, Blue! 3. Well, this is perhaps the main reason why LOTR is such a compelling book and why people return to it again and again and feel a need to study it and the other works of Tolkien in the same way that they might study a period of history or a religious work. That sense that there is so much more to know, that we're just being given one story, one glimpse of a rich and varied history. 4. The Rohirrim are first and foremost warriors. To fight and to die in battle are glorious things to them. Like all the other peoples, they sing of those things they love most. The immortal people are hardly likely to glorify death, it occurs to me, because death is out of place in their world. The Elves can die, but it's not a true death, just a loss of the physical body, and they can come back, apparently, if Mandos lets them. For mortal men, death is inevitable. We don't know what the Rohirrim believed about the afterlife. The fact that they glorify death, especially a death in battle fighting evil, hints at a belief that death is merely a passage.
• Check out Theoden's last words. - Steve D
  You'll see he did have a belief in life after death.
• Theoden: "obedient unto death" - Steve D
  On to your second question. It seems to me that what makes Theoden different is his pure motivation. He was acting to do his duty as King and for the good of his people, and to fulfill his oath to Gondor. There was no selfish egotism and also no rebellion against authority.One thing I noticed is that he is the most important good character to die in the story. (Not counting Boromir and Denethor as good, and not counting Gandalf's temporary death.)
• Great questions, Blue!!! - Steve D
  Let me express my thoughts on one. It seems to me that the proper definition of the word "god" is something like "a supernatural being that humans should worship". So if you call the Valar gods or not really depends on if you think they shoud be worshiped or not.
• Book V, Chapter 5 - The Ride of the Rohirrim #4 "The wind is changing" - Blue Wizard
  Both Ghan-buri-Ghan and Widfara, one of the riders, note that the wind has changed. Instead of the dark reek out of the East, Windara notes that it is coming from the South, with a faint sea-tang. Of course, we all "know" what this portends, but at the time of reading this chapter for the first time, is there anything other than a general sense that Sauron is not as in control of the battle as he might have thought? And, is the change in the weather simply symbolic of the changing tides of war, or does it indicate an intervention by the Valar in this struggle?
• I always considered it - Stumpy
  a hint of how Aragorn was faring to the south.
• I never noticed that... - GaladrielTX
  till this reading! I always thought it was just a good omen.
• hey, Tex! - Stumpy
  Haven't seen you in these parts for a while :o) *hug*
• Sauron is still crippled - Annael
  I don't think it was the Valar. I think it's a hint that Sauron is over-reaching himself. He can't completely control the weather, he can't make everything go his way. Yet. But if he were to get the Ring . . .
• It brings a sense of hope - Kimi
  that seems a little stronger than "a general sense that Sauron is not as in control of the battle as he might have thought". Ghan-buri-Ghan certainly behaved as if it were something significant, and he seems deeply in tune with the natural world. Yes, I do think the wind from the sea is an example of the Valar giving things a gentle nudge. It didn't occur to me on early readings, but it "feels" true now.
• I've never thought of that. - Steve D
  It could have very well been from the Valar.
• Book V, Chapter 5 - The Ride of the Rohirrim #3 - The Narrative - Blue Wizard
  This Chapter is in one sense more or less unique in LOTR. It is just about the only chapter in which we already know what has happened! Chapter 4 ends with the blowing of the horns of the men of Rohan, so we know that they have arrived at the battle, and this chapter tells us of how they came to arrive. I don't recall a single chapter, either previously or subsequently, in which we already know what happens in terms of the major plot points, and we are simply filling in the details. The closest thing that I can think of is Frodo awakening in Rivendell - and Gandalf telling him how he came to be there. But that is quite different. Is this chapter simply just a matter of filling in some details, just purely a filler to get Theoden and his forces from point A to point B, or does this chapter fulfil a broader role and purpose?
• Getting to Gondor. - Inferno
  In Return of the King, we get three different accounts of journeys to Minas Tirith: Pippin & Gandalf, Merry & the Rohirrim, and Aragorn, Gimil, Legolas, et. al. All three are presented differently. Pippin's happens in 'real time'-- we are presented with it at the time it happens in the story, roughly. There is the break for Frodo and Sam (book IV), but the story in Book V picks up right where it left off with Pippin. We don't know anything more when we start this chapter than the characters do. As Blue has pointed out, we do know that Rohan makes it in time, as that is how the previous chapter ends, but we don't know how they get there. This chapter shows us also in 'real-time' how Merry and the Rohirrim make it to Gondor. Aragorn's company arrives at the battle, turning the tide before we ever find out what happens. In this instance, the tale of the journey is given in exposition, Gimli and Legolas relating to Pippin what has already occurred. I think that internally, this all makes sense. Frodo would be writing the record of the hobbits' involvement in the War of the Ring. Everyone already knows that Gondor won the war, so there isn't any real big 'plot secret' to hide from the internal readers of the tale (ie, the other Hobbits), but they would be interested how it all fell out, similar to how we go to see multiple productions of Shakespeare plays, not because we want to know how it ends, but because we want to see how it's portrayed. Since Merry and Pippin were closely involved in the first two journeys, their accounts are given as they happen. No hobbits were with the Grey Company on the Paths of the Dead, and this segment is given to the reader in a different way to distinguish it. As to why Tolkien told us that Rohan arrives (external to the narrative devices) before he shows us that journey, it could be to remove some of the suspense. As is said repeatedly in the tale, the true path to victory isn't in the battles they win, it's in getting Frodo to the mountain to destroy the Ring. Had we not known in advance that Rohan makes it in time, we may feel more caught up in these less important events, and become less concerned with the tale of Frodo and Sam. It could be argued that Tolkien also deflated the suspense of Frodo and Sam's quest by revealing that Frodo was still alive at the end of Book IV, thus refuting my theory above. I'd say that there is more suspense generated, because now Sam is setting aside the quest to destroy the Ring, and is going after Frodo. So we don't know now if the Ring will make it to the Fire or not, and this is a great way to carry the suspense further along. Inferno.
• While it's perhaps mainly for that purpose, - Kimi
  this chapter does give us some interesting things: - We meet the Druadan, a race quite different from any other we have come across, and a link with a lesser-known memory of the Elder Days. - We catch up with Merry, and get an image of his desperate hobbit courage: he has no illusions about his own abilities or the likelihood of his survival, but he won't give in to despair. - I don't know if this is deliberate, but I find a touch of humour in the interactions between Théoden and Ghân-buri-Ghân. Théoden uses lofty language, while Ghân-buri-Ghân is far more down-to-earth (in more than one sense): "'If you are faithful, Ghân-buri-Ghân, then we will give you rich reward, and you shall have the friendship of the Mark for ever.' 'Dead men are not friends to living men, and give them no gifts,' said the Wild Man." - We find that the Men of Middle-earth can't all be divided into goodies and baddies. The Druadan won't fight, but they have common cause with the Rohirrim. And what's the history behind this from Ghân-buri-Ghân? "But if you live after the Darkness, then leave Wild Men alone in the woods and do not hunt them like beasts any more." (my italics) - We see Théoden's courage. The fear of the Nazgul weighs on the Rohirrim, but he shakes it off and appears "like a god of old" in leading his troops.
• expands our view - Steve D
  It seems to me that it expands our view of life in Middle-earth by bringing in the mysterious Wild Men. It also has descriptions of the landscape as well as a glimpse of the ordinary Rohirrim, not just the royalty.
• I agree with Kimi and Steve; also, - Frodo Gardner
  the Dernhelm sub-plot can't be ignored. We are being prepared, subtly, for the moment of the death of the Black Captain. Also, I think I might add that though one doesn't know it as a certainty, most readers have a pretty good idea that the Ring is ultimately destroyed. Tolkien's story is captivating in the telling of HOW that happens. So also, the lesser story line of HOW Rohan arrives in the nick of time is as fascinating, if not more so, than the fact that they do arrive at an opportune moment.
• Book V, Chapter 5 - The Ride of the Rohirrim #2: The Woses - Blue Wizard
  We open this chapter with Merry hearing a sound like drums signaling to one another in the distance. He, and we, wonder if the sentinals and scouts have heard them as well - could they be Sauron's armies in the distance? But, both we and Merry find that they are the Woses, as Elfhelm calls them, the Wild Men of the Woods. In Unfinished Tales, it is explained that the word "Wose" is derived by Tolkien from the Anglo-Saxon word "wasa", which is found in the expression, "wudu-wasa" or "wild man of the woods". The term apparently survived for a very long time in English, and eventually mutated into "wood house". In the same note, the term "Pukel Men", which is what the Rohirrim called the statutes on the road to Dunharrow which the Woses resembled, is also based on an Anglo-Saxon word - "pucel", meaning goblin or demon,- the same root from which Puck is derived. There is an extensive section in UT on the Druedain - the race of men from whom the inhabitants of Druedan Forest descended. There are several interesting notes about them there. Some peoples thought that Melkor had bred the orcs from these people, perhaps because of their unusual and "uncouth" appearance. To this, the Eldar answered: "Doubtless Morgoth, since he can make no living thing, bred Orcs from various kinds of Men, but the Druedain must have escaped from his Shadow; for their laughter and the laughter of Orcs are as different as is the light of Aman from the darkness of Angband." {Note that there is a description in this chapter of Ghan-buri-Ghan's laugh.]But some thought otherwise, and that it accounted in part for the special emnity between them and the orcs, and the attitude of each toward the other as renegades. Elfhelm also notes that the Wose use poisoned arrows. But Tolkien writes: "They had a law against the use of all poisons for the hurt of any living creatures, even those who had done them injury - save only Orcs, whose poisoned darts they countered with others even more deadly."
• I like them... - docrodg
  The Woses seem to me to be a nice addition. Altho in the earlier drafts of Middle Earth Tolkien may have decided they were the men the Orcs were twisted from in the LOTR and Silmarillion it is the Elves. But the impact of the Woses is in their presence, and their seeming primitiveness to the Rohirrim. They show that the Rohirrim are not quite all good, as they hunt the Woses. But they understand more than they let on and have craft in their woods that none can match. Ghan tells Theoden to stop hunting them, and to defeat the enemy at Gondor, knowing much about the enemy and his movements. He is honorable in running next to Theoden so that he may be killed if he is wrong about his pledge for assistance.
• You're right, they do have some good points. - Steve D
• I wish he had made them more interesting. - Steve D
  The extra information was interesting, but somehow in the book, to me at least, they seem kind of boring. One problem I have is that they talk like American Indians in old movies. That makes them seem like a cliche. (disclaimer: Mrs D is part Indian.)
• I think I felt something of the same thing. - Frodo Gardner
  Tolkien arouses curiosity about these people but provides very few details. They are included to provide a device by which the Rohirrim can circumvent the army blocking the road to Mundburg. Since they are ancillary to the furthering of the plot, little is written about them. The stilted speech of the Wild Men reminds me not just of the old-style portrayal of the Indians, but of just about all peoples who were supposed to be uncivilized - Tarzan (Simba! Oom-gow-ah!), any indigenous tribesman that had previous contact with English speaking people, even aliens from other worlds (usually) were all portrayed with the same broken English. It's a stale attempt at humor nowadays, but a few decades ago it was funny to see the stereotype broken by having characters normally portrayed as possessing only stilted English respond to attempts by a (usually despicable) Anglophone's broken English in perfectly fluent English. When I have encountered people who grew up in other countries and possess limited English skills, their manner has never been like the portrayal from the movies and television shows. I agree with you, Steve. I wish Tolkien had written that part a bit differently. I don't hold it against him, it's just one aspect of the story that misses its mark when connecting to this one reader. BTW, I was quite engaged by the discussion on theology and the final state of the dead that went on in my absence. With no clear indication to the contrary, I think that I am forced to assume that Tolkien held an orthodox RC position on the subject. But I think that as far as personal beliefs, my position may be close to yours. I do believe that the second death has an implied ultimate cessation of being attached with the concept. After all, God alone has immortality ((I Tim 6:16); He is willing to bestow it to those who believe (Jn 3:16; II Tim 1:10; I Cor 16). This is not to say that there is not a just punishment issued by the holy God to all who are not saved by His grace. I just believe that the scriptural indication, going to the sense of the original language, is that there is a finality of process. The result is eternal and immutable, but those who stand condemned by their unbelief are not afflicted with an eternally conscious torment. Death implies an end to life - not just of "the spirit" by a separation from God, but a cessation of consciousness, of body, soul and spirit.
• Thanks FG, interesting comments. - Steve D
• Is that Tolkien's fault? - Blue Wizard
  I suppose that we can categorize the Druedain as archetypal "noble savages" on the Rousseau model, and I guess that we can engage in all kinds of reckless speculation about sources, ranging from Tolkien's very early childhood memories in South Africa to whether or not Tolkien as a child or young man ever witnessed Buffalo Bill Cody's Wild West Show on one of its European tours. Despite the stereotypical elements, I guess that Ghan-buri-Ghan doesn't remind me of Tonto all that much. I am much more impressed by his rejoinder to the Rohirrim to the effect - we may be Wild Men (which was indeed their name for themselves), but we are not children, and their lore and long memories - that they were here before the stone houses, and before the tall men came from across the Sea.
• I don't think they're bad. - Steve D
  There's nothing offensive about them. But somehow they seem like an archeotype or cliche not real people. And no readers seem to get excited about them, like they do about Tom B. or the Ents or even the Eagles.
• Book V, Chapter 5 - The Ride of the Rohirrim #1 - Elfhelm, the Marshal - Blue Wizard
  From Chapter 3, we have heard a little about Elfhelm, in whose eored Merry and Eowyn traveled. Here, he is called a marshal. The battle plan that Theoden orders -himself leading the charge, with Eomer following in the center, Elfhelm on the right, and Grimbold on the left - shows that he is one of the leaders of Rohan. We may infer from these that he is a person of considerable rank and status in Rohan, but LOTR tells us little else. But, in Unfinished Tales, Tolkien fleshes out somewhat the background of this Marshal of the Mark. In the Battles of the Fords of the Isen, which preceded the Battle at Helm's Deep, Grimbold and Elfhelm led the forces which checked Saruman's advance, and probably prevented his forces from capturing Edoras. Tolkien wrote: "Marshal of the Mark (or Riddermark) was the highest military rand and the title of the King's lieutenants (originally three) commanders of the royal forces fo fully equiped and trainded Riders. The First Marshal's ward was the capital, Edoras, and the adjacent King's Lands (including Harrowdale). He commanded the Riders of the Muster of Edoras... "In the days of Theoden, there was no man appointed to the office of First Marshal. He came to the throne as a young man (at the age of thirty-two), vigorous and of martial spirit, and a great horseman. If war came, he would himself command the Muster of Edoras; but his kingdom was a peace for many years...In this peace, the Riders and other armed men of the garrison of Edoras were coverned by an officer of the rank of marshal (in the years 3012-3019, this was Elfhelm.)" He goes on to describe how, when war began with Saruman, Theodred on his own assumed general command in light of Theoden's apparent premature dotage, and summoned the Muster of Edoras, under the command of Elfhelm, to strengthen the Muster of Westfold. When Theodred died in the First Battle of the Fords of the Isen, Erkenbrand took command of the West-Mark, and Elfhelm continued in independent command of the Muster of Edoras. He continues: "After the healing of Theoden by Gandalf, the situation changed. The King again took command in person. Eomer was reinstated, and became virtually First Marshal....Elfhelm became a Marshal of the mark, leading the first eored of the Muster of the East-mark. Grimbold...had the function, but not the title of Third marshal, and commanded the Muster of the West-mark.... "It is recorded that after Theoden's funersl, when Eomer reordered his realm, Erkenbrand was made Marshal of the West-mark, and Elfhelm Marshal of the East-Mark, and these titles were maintained, instead of Second and Third Marshal, neither having precedence over the other." I guess that there isn't really a question there, but it is remarkable that Tolkien very carefully fleshed out the military and governmental ranks of Rohan...even to the extent of considering how the structure of rank might change over time in war or in peace, or under a change from one King to another, not merely a set of static ranks or offices that one person or another might fill as another dies.
• Elfhelm - Stumpy
  is an interesting name. I'm picturing a helmet with pointy elven ears sticking out the sides.
• That reminds me of a question I've always wondered about - Blue Wizard
  ...whether some of the names of the Rohirrim are "birth-names" or were conferred at "adulthood". Elfhelm and Grimbold, for example. Elfhelm's name certainly suggests that he acquired the name in honor of his helmet. The Rohirrim often used armor acquired from the smiths of Gondor, as well as having their own armories. Maybe Elfhelm somehow acquired, or inherited, an elvish helm - maybe a fancy one like Legolas is wearing in the Howe calendar illustration?. And Grimbold - is that any kind of a name for a baby? It sounds to me more like something that is conferred as an honorary or adult name, maybe in a "coming of age" ceremony in his teens. Any thoughts?
• other possibility - Steve D
  You could be right, it's also possible that their names were given at birth but that the parents had foresight into their child's future.
• Elfhelm certainly sounds - Stumpy
  as if it were given because of a distinctive helmet, maybe a family heirloom. I wonder if the Dern in Dernhelm is an old English word of some kind. Grimbold is so different than the usual Rohirrim names that I suspect it was bestowed at some point besides childbirth.
• "That dern helm." - Steve D
• That's a lot of info... - Steve D
  "That dern helm."

Inferno
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Apr262009,4:17am

Post #42 of 65(29542 views)
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• Book V, Chapter 6: The Battle of the Pelennor Fields-- Summing Up - Inferno

• Great job Inferno & everyone else! - Annael
  Wonderful discussion this week. "Individuals aren’t naturally paid-up members of the human race, except biologically. They need to be bounced around by the Brownian motion of society, which is a mechanism by which human beings constantly remind one another that they are ... well ... human beings." - Terry Pratchett

• Thanks Inferno. Some great discussions this week! - Kimi
  And great to see some new faces!
• great work, Inferno. this chapter could take a month - Steve D
• Book V, Chapter 6: The Battle of the Pelennor Fields -- A Miscellany. - Inferno
  OK, I've covered all the topics and ideas that I've had for the chapter. Hopefully there's enough time to generate some additional discussion though. If any of you had any thoughts, questions, or comments about this chapter that you didn't see listed here, post away under this heading, and let your voice be heard. Steve D's already done some of this covering Theoden's last words, and discussing aspects that hadn't occurred to me. So you've even got an example if you need one. Don't be shy, folks. Post away! Inferno.
• Book V, Chapter 6: The Battle of the Pelennor Fields -- 'though all the hosts of Mordor lay between us' - Inferno
  "And so at length Eomer and Aragorn met in the midst of the battle, and they leaned on their swords and looked on one another and were glad.
  "'Thus we meet again, though all the hosts of Mordor lay between us,' said Aragorn. 'Did I not say so at the Hornburg?'
  "'So you spoke,' said Eomer, 'but hope oft deceives, and I knew not then that you were a man forsighted.'" What do you think of Aragorn's prescience? This whole section with the Corsairs, Aragorn's standard unfurling, Eomer's hopeless defiance and sudden joy, ending with this meeting on the battlefield has a lot of stirring elements. What do you learn about Eomer and Aragorn in this exchange? It's one of the few pieces of dialogue in this chapter, so it has significance for that, if nothing else. Inferno.
• This scene makes me go back to the idea... - vedhed
  that struggling against the odds was Tolkien's themes. In essence Aragorn was saying, "yeah, I know Sauron's got the deck stacked in his favor, but I'm gonna play this game and BEAT HIM ANYWAY." I'm not even sure that Aragorn thought he was speaking the truth when he said it. He just knew in his heart that he was gonna fight to win or die trying. I love this scene because its the coming together of all the things the "good" guys did right in order to defeat this great army. There were many things they could have done as "quick fixes" such as wielding the ring, or retreating and fighting later. They didn't go for any short sighted solutions and took on the challenge before them and won. I love this sort of thing. Again it reminds me of Shakespeare and Hal the King saying we don't need or even want anymore men. More's the glory for us few if we beat this great army. Tolkien was an OK writer, huh?
• There's no like Aragorn, except Mr Gandalf of course. I think those two must be related. - Narya
  Well they're not, but Aragorns prescience is evidence of his lineage, descendent through many generations of the elves. The evidence pointing to Aragorns claim to the throne of Gondor and Arnor is mounting. Aragorn is winning important political support, (as well as the respect, admiration and gratitude) of men such as Eomer, who by this time is the king of Rohan. Even the wise cannot see all ends.

• This could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship . . . - Annael
  I've heard, and I believe it, that the bond between men who have been comrades-at-arms is the strongest one humans know. Aragorn and Eomer have fought one battle together already; now they meet in the middle of a bigger one and fight together. I think we're seeing that bond being formed. We know from the Appendices that Eomer often aided Aragorn in the wars of Gondor after they were both crowned king. I hope the movie does justice to this moment!

• It is a great moment and remember that... - Steve D
  Eomer had tried to dissuade Aragorn from taking the Paths of the Dead and had expected him to die there.
• Book V, Chapter 6: The Battle of the Pelennor Fields -- The dead and the living. - Inferno
  The only 'good guy' whose death we see in this chapter is Theoden's. It is given to us in some detail, as he falls under Snowmane, is defended from the attack of the Witch-King by Eowyn, and his last words to Merry and Eomer. At the end of the chapter, we are given an enumeration, both in prose and in the Rohirric verse, of the other heros who died in the battle, as well as the line 'Death in the morning and at day's ending/lords took and lowly." How is Theoden's death representative of the deaths of all who have fallen on the battlefield? What would we have gained, had the battle been more detailed, and we had seen (for example) Halbarad fall, or any of the others mentioned at the end? Also, we are told at the end of the chapter that Aragorn, Eomer, and Imrahil 'were unscathed, for such was their fortune and skill and might of their arms, and few indeed had dared to abide them or look on their faces in the hour of their wrath.' Theoden has fallen. In the next chapter, Denethor also passes from the living. Is Tolkien setting us up to accept a new regime with the passing of the 'old school'? What do you make of this passage in comparison to Theoden's death? Inferno.
• Theoden has thrown - Stumpy
  of his frailty and dotage to go out fighting, the picture of nobility, while Denethor has succumbed to despair and fallen to Sauron's influence, preferring instead to die ignobly, and take his still living son with him!
• Theoden vs. Denethor - Steve D
  For one thing, it seems like there is a deliberate contrast between the two, on a lot of different points.
• Book V, Chapter 6: The Battle of the Pelennor Fields -- Battle focus. - Inferno
  I apologize in advance for the length of this post. The quotes contained are going to be large. And, incidentally, if you think this is a lot to read, remember, I had to type it all in. ;) As discussed earlier this week, Tolkien focuses on the heroes of the LotR when showing the battle scenes. However, not only do we only get selected snapshots of the battle where the heros participate, these moments themselves (with the sole exception of the Witch-King and Eowyn) are terse reports of events. To illustrate, I've prepared some quotes from two other authors to compare with Tolkien's. Tolkien's quotes (for each relevant section) are listed first, followed by the quote(s) of the others. "Southward beyond the road lay the main force of the Haradrim, and there their horsemen were gathered about the standard of their chieftain. And he looked out, and in the growing light he saw the banner of the king, and that it was far ahead of the battle with few men about it. Then he was filled with a red wrath and shouted aloud, and displaying his standard, black serpent upon scarlet, he came against the white horse and the green with great press of men; and the drawing of the scimitars of the Southrons was like a glitter of stars.
  "Then Theoden was aware of him, and would not wait for his onset, but crying to Snowmane he charged headlong to greet him. Great was the clash of their meeting. But the white fury of the North-men burned the hotter, and more skilled was their knighthood with long spears and bitter. Fewer were they but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest. Right through the press drove Theoden Thengel's son, and his spear was shivered as he threw down their chieftain. Out swept his sword, and he spurred to the standard, hewed staff and bearer; and the black serpent foundered. Then all that was left unslain of their cavalry turned and fled far away."
  (Battle of the Pelennor Fields, RotK) "'My King!' one of his men shouted, pointing toward the center of several close-packed Murgo regiments milling about in a shallow valley a few hundred yards away. 'There's the black banner!'
  "King Cho-Hag's eyes suddenly gleamed as a wild hope surged through him. 'Bring my banner to the front!' he roared, and the clansman who carried the burgundy-and-white banner of the Chief of the Clan-Chiefs galloped forward with the standard streaming above his head. 'Let's go my children!' Cho-Hag shouted and drove his horse directly at the Murgos in the valley. With sabre raised, the crippled King of the Algars led his men down into the Murgo horde. His warriors slashed to the right and to the left, but Cho-Hag plunged directly at the center, his eyes fixed on the black banner of Taur Urgas, King of the Murgos.
  "And then, in the midst of the household guard, Cho-Hag saw the blood-red mail of Taur Urgas himself. Cho-Hag raised his bloody sabre and shouted a ringing challenge. 'Stand and fight, you Murgo dog!' he roared.
  "Startled by that shout, Taur Urgas wheeled his horse to stare incredulously at the charging King of Algaria. His eyes suddenly bulged with the fervid light of insanity, and his lips, foam-flecked, drew back in a snarl of hatred. 'Let him come!' he grated. 'Clear the way for him!'
  "The startled members of his personal guard stared at him.
  "'Make way for the King of Algaria!' Taur Urgas shrieked. 'He is mine!' And the Murgo troops melted out of Cho-Hag's path.
  "The Algar King reined in his horse. 'And so it's finally come, Taur Urgas,' he said coldly.
  "'It has indeed Cho-Hag,' Taur Urgas replied. 'I've waited for this moment for years.'
  "'If I'd known you were waiting, I'd have come soonder.'
  "'Today is your last day, Cho-Hag.' The Murgo King's eyes were completely mad now, and foam drooled from the corners of his mouth.
  "'Do you plan to fight with threats and hollow words, Taur Urgas? Or have you forgotten how to draw your sword?'
  "With an insane shriek, Taur Urgas ripped his broad-bladed sword from its scabbard and drove his black horse toward the Algar King. 'Die!' he howled, slashing at the air even as he charged. 'Die, Cho-Hag!'
  "It was not a duel, for there were proprieties in a duel. The two kings hacked at each other with an elemental brutality, thousands of years of pent-up hatred boiling in their blood. Taur Urgas, totally mad now, sobbed and gibbered as he swung his heavy sword at his enemy. Cho-Hag, cold as ice and with an arm as fast as the flickering tongue of a snake, slid the crushing Murgo blows aside, catching them on his sliding sabre and flicking his blade like a whip, its edge biting again and again into the shoulders and face of the King of the Murgos.
  "The two armies, stunned by the savagery of the encounter, recoiled and gave the mounted kings room for their deadly struggle.
  "Frothing obscenities, Taur Urgas hacked insanely at the elusive form of his foe, but Cho-Hag, colder yet, feinted and parried and flicked his whistling sabre at the Murgo's bleeding face.
  "Finally, driven past even what few traces of reason were left to him, Taur Urgas hurled his horse directly at Cho-Hag with a wild animal scream. Standing in his stirrups, he grasped his sword hilt in both hands, raising it like an axe to smash his enemy forever. But Cho-Hag danced his horse to one side and thrust with all his strength, even as Taur Urgas began his massive blow. With a steely rasp, his sabre ran through the Murgo's blood-red mail and through the tensed body, to emerge dripping from his back.
  "Unaware in his madness that he had just received a mortal wound, Taur Urgas raised his sword again, but the strength drained from his arms and the sword fell from his grasp. With stunned disbelief, he gaped at the sabre emerging from his chest, and a bloody froth burst from his mouth. He lifted his hands like claws as if to tear away the face of his enemy, but Cho-Hag contemptuosly slapped his hands away, even as he pulled his slender, curved blade out of hte Murgo's body with a slithering whistle."
  (Enchanter's Endgame, Chapter 17; David Eddings) Now, compare these quotes: "East rode the knights of Dol Amroth driving the enemy before them: troll-men and Variags and orcs that hated the sunlight. South strode Eomer and men fled before his face, and tehy were caught between the hammer and the anvil. For now men leaped from the ships to the quays of the Harlond and swept north like a storm. There came Legolas, and Gimli wielding his axe, and Halbarad with the standard, and Elladan and Elrohir with stars on their brow, and the dour-handed Dunedain, Rangers of the North, leading a great valour of the folk of Lebinin and Lamedon and the fiefs of the South. But before all went Aragorn with the Flame of the West, Anduril like a new fire kindled, Narsil re-forged as deadly as of old; and upon his brow was the Star of Elendil. ...
  "Hard fighting and long labour they had still; for the Southrons were bold men and grim, and fierce in despair; and the Easterlings were strong and war-hardened and asked for no quarter. And so in this place and that, by burned homestead or barn, upon hillock or mound, under wall or on field, still they gathered and rallied and fought until the day wore away."
  (Battle of the Pelennor Fields) "Several squads of heavily armed Trolls made a series of rushes at the Legion command, but they were equally matched in numbers and the veteran soldiers quickly repelled them. When darkness came at last, the enemy army suddenly began to organize into columns five deep, and Balinor knew that the first sustained rush would break the Legion into pieces.
  "With the skill and daring that had made him the spirit behind the fabled Border Legion and the finest field commander in the Southland, the Prince of Callahorn began to execute a most difficult tactical maneuver. Without waiting for the enemy to strike, he suddenly divided his army and attacked far to the right and left of the Northland columns. Stirking sharply in short feints, and taking full advantage of the darkness, in terrain every Borderman knew well, the soldiers of the Legion drew in the flanks of the enemy to form a ragged half circle. Each time the circle grew tighter and each time the Tyrsians retreated a little farther. Balinor and Fandwick held the left flank while Acton and Messaline commanded the right.
  "The enraged enemy began to charge madly, stumbling awkwardly over the unfamiliar ground in the growing darkness, the retreating soldiers of the Legion always just a few steps out of reach. Slowly Balinor drew his flanks in and narrowed his lines, pulling the searching Northlanders in with him. Then, when the foot soldiers had completely fallen back in retreat, covered by darkness and the battle behind them, the skilled cavalry drew their lines together in a final feint and slipped from between the jaws of the closing enemy and was gone. Suddenly the right and left flanks of the harried Northland army met, each believing that the other was the hated enemy that had eluded it for several hours. Without hesitating, they attacked.
  "How many Trolls and Gnomes were slain by their own people would never be known, but the fighting was still raging when Balinor and the two divisions of the Border Legion arrived safely at the gates of Tyrsis. The horses' hooves and soldiers' feet had been muffled to cover their retreat."
  (The Sword of Shannara, Chapter 29; Terry Brooks) I had a couple of other battle scenes to quote, but this post has already gotten to be really long, so I'll stop here. The point of all this is that Tolkien spends hardly any time describing the actual fighting. He manages to convey the scope of the battle in a few words, and focuses on the heroes of the story during the battle. Even the moments when his is describing the battle itself, there is little in the way of detail. How do you think this lack of detail (especially in comparison with the two bits quoted from Eddings and Brooks) changes the focus of the battle? What is gained, or what is left out? Inferno.
• It gives it a - Stumpy
  more 'epic' feel, for sure. The individual battles are too numerous to describe, and Tolkien leaves it up to our imagination to fill in the bloody details.
• I like JRRT. - Steve D
  The other guys are kind of muddled, it seems to me. They skip from one thing to another without a consistent point of view. In the first one who cares about the bad guy? So nothing is gained by describing his death so graphically. In the second what's the point of telling us how smart the hero is? With Tolkien it's always about the meaning not just about what happened.
• Book V, Chapter 6: The Battle of the Pelennor Fields -- Where's Gandalf? - Inferno
  Merry asks this question, or variants of it a couple times in this chapter. When last we saw Gandalf, it was two chapters previous, when he is facing off with the Witch-King at the broken Gate. Then we cut to the journey and the arrival of the Rohirrim, at which point the Witch-King abandons the gate, and takes the field against Rohan. Where is Gandalf? As we find out in the next chapter, Pippin leads him to Rath Dinen to save Faramir. But we haven't been given that information at this point. The only point of view here that we have in this matter is Merry's. What thoughts of Gandalf do you think the other main characters (Eomer, Aragorn, Imrahil, Gimli, etc.) are having about Gandalf's absence in this chapter? As a first time reader, what were your thoughts about Gandalf's absence? And, had he been on the field of battle, would he have been able to save Theoden and Eowyn? Would the outcome of the battle been largely the same, or would there be some differences? Tolkien took a lot of time to formulate the plotlines of this work (it took many years to write, after all), and he must have considered other ways of working this section. One thing that comes to my mind is that had Gandalf been on the field, the 'lesser' characters wouldn't have the opportunity to grow as much. In this respect, it's similar to the Scouring of the Shire. Gandalf leaves the Hobbits to deal with matters in the Shire because they need to know that they have the capacity to face their challenges. This seems to be a similar thing. In the appendices, there is mention of further battles fought by Aragorn and Eomer over the years. Had Gandalf been involved in the Pelennor, they may have had less confidence in their ability to deal with later matters without Gandalf's aid and advice. Thoughts? Inferno.
• He's the one in the red-striped hockey shirt ? - Annael
  But seriously folks . . . I imagine Eomer might well be wondering; although he quickly gave his trust to Aragorn, we never heard him express any opinion about Gandalf, and we know the Rohirrim in general had been poisoned to some extent in their opinions of Gandalf by Wormtongue. Imrahil might well be wondering too; we have no idea what his experience with Gandalf is. I think Aragorn had complete trust in Gandalf, more than anyone except perhaps for Elrond and Galadriel. If he took time to wonder at all, he probably thought Gandalf was off doing something important. The absence of the Nazgul might have confirmed that thought. I think Gimli was probably focused on hewing orc-necks! And he and Legolas would also trust that Gandalf would show up in good time, a la Helm's Deep. Gandalf might have been able to save Theoden, but if he had faced the Witch King, Eowyn and Merry would not have fulfilled the prophecy. Nor would his presence have "saved" Eowyn in the larger sense; it's because she's wounded that she gets sent to the Houses of Healing, where she meets Faramir, who heals her heart. And as I said below, I like it that Tolkien doesn't resort to deus ex machina here. The Witch King is an evil, twisted version of a mortal, and is therefore rightfully dealt with by two mortals.
• That might be a good idea for a book. :) - Steve D

• LOL! - Annael
  He'd be VERY hard to find at: Bree
  Weathertop
  The Ford of Bruinen
  Helm's Deep
  The Battle of the Pelennor Fields

• And the Battle of Bywater :) - Steve D
• a question - Steve D
  I feel that Gandalf must have done the right thing. I wonder though why Faramir's life seems to be more important than the lives Gandalf could have saved on the battlefield.
• Book V, Chapter 6: The Battle of the Pelennor Fields -- The Corsairs are coming!! - Inferno
  Tolkien seems to have an affinity for the 'fake-out' (for lack of a better term). Gandalf's death, Frodo's 'death', Pippin's 'death', and several other instances in the book all are points where the characters believe one thing when another is actually happening instead. Generally, the reader is pulled along the same way, as we don't know in advance any more information than the characters have in these instances. This is another instance of that. The ships of Umbar are actually populated with the Men of southern Gondor, led by Aragorn. The trick though, is how believable is this? We have a deep-seated sense of the good guys winning, and we have to believe that they will win. Still, the coming of the Corsairs could be occuring, causing more difficulty for the heros, yet they can still win out in the end by some other means. Did this news of the Black Fleet seem believable to you when you first read this? What are your thoughts about the nature of Aragorn's coming this way? Inferno.
• I never really liked it - Draupne
  mostly 'cause I can't get the picture of the boats as Dutch ships from around 1500 (Koggen or something) out of my mind. Better that than Viking longships I suppose, but still...
• Speaking as a corsair... - Sangarunya
  ...I find Aragorn's victory over the black fleet highly unbelievable.
  That he could conquer a sea-hardened naval force with a handful of maritimely lesser competent Gondorians and some inactive phantoms (they took no active part in battle), is one of the great mysteries of The Final Battle. But, hey, I'm biased here. THE CORSAIRS ARE COMING! AHOWOO! AHOWOO!
  THE DARK MOTHER'S CHILDREN! AHOWOO! AHOWOO! Ehm, sorry, just felt for letting you in on our battlecry...
• Heh! - Stumpy
  AHOWOO?!? *tries to figure out how that would sound*
• Just for the record: - Sangarunya
  A - HOW - OO!!!
• Thanks :o) - Stumpy
  I was thinking AH-WOO like a wolf howl
• A purely emotional reaction from me - Kimi
  Re-reading this chapter, I was as moved by the Fleet's arrival as on my first reading. I can see the scene so clearly in my mind, thanks to Tolkien's superb description. The moment when Éomer, laughing at despair, lifts up his sword to defy the new arrivals, then Arwen's banner billows out and Éomer casts his sword in the air for joy and sings as he catches it! It brought tears to my eyes yet again. I believe it, absolutely.
• Me too - Morwen
  I had no trouble believing it.
• In some ways, it's the least believable part of the battle - Blue Wizard
  Not that Aragorn arrives on these ships, which has a nice parallel to the arrival of the Numenorians at Middle Earth an age ago, but that as a matter of tactics they were able to have any impact on the battle at all. As I understand it, there were these huge quays at the bend in the river just below the City. Aragorn's fleet, powered by sails and oars, moves against the flow of the river up to them, and his armies disembark, right? Now, how many men he had with him is not stated, although we are told in an earlier chapter that the southern provinces of Gondor had spared only a tithe of their forces, in anticipation of the Corsairs; and at the end of the Battle, when Aragorn decides to march on Mordor, he leaves the City better defended than when the battle began, although many of these marched, rather than sailed, from the south. It seems to me that there are two possibilities: (i) he doesn't have all that many men, or ships; or (ii) he has a huge number of men and ships. But, either way, the quays are a bottleneck, and it would seem awfully easy for a relatively small force from the armies of Mordor, with archers, and fire, to keep the fleet bottled up in the harbor, making it virtually impossible to have any substantial force actually disembark and join the battle, let alone turn its tide decisively.
• You're wrong again, Blue. ;) - Steve D
  Mordor's armies were so disorganized that it would be impossible to set something like this up on a moment's notice. As for archers, did they ever have any effect? The only good person they seem to have killed is Boromir and they had him outnumbered and surrounded at close range, and his time was up anyway.
• Interesting - Frode
  That's an interesting problem BW. Here are some factors that we don't know enough about as I see it: -The timespan between Aragorn reveals his banner his landing. Does the enemy have time to reach the Harlond?
  -This also depends on the state of the enemy army. Are they in great confusion and disaray? Do they have archers in this part of the Battle field?
  -How close is the enemy to the landing site? That's very important.
  -Do the enemy have cavalery nearby? If not then the Numenoreans might have landed their cavalery (which charges first) under cover from their own archers. Once a certain amount of cavalary is in the field it's hard to stop the landing anyway withouth cavalery of your own.
• Sounds like WarCraft. - Steve D
• More than the foe expected - Annael
  The bad guys came to besiege Minas Tirith, not to fight a battle on many fronts. They weren't expecting attack from the River, they'd already had to turn to face the Rohirrim unexpectedly, their general had just been killed, and the sun was breaking through - if the momentum of the battle had still been with them, perhaps one of their leaders would have done as you suggested. But instead they panicked.
• Not to mention - Stumpy
  controlling the river prevents reinforcements from the east. Another point is how important morale is to the outcome of a battle even against huge odds. Good guys got it, bad guys lost it.
• Kewl - Annael
  It's a great moment when Eomer sees the black ships, thinks that all hope is lost, and laughs. It expresses the indomitable spirit of Men, just as Gimli and the hobbits express the spirit of their races. It's something I often think when reading LOTR: the short-lived races are the ones who live each moment most intensely, while to Elves, it's all a passing dream. And of course it's a wonderful moment when Aragorn's standard is revealed and everything changes in an instant. It's interesting to me that everyone, even the foe, seems to know instantly what Aragorn's standard means.
• Book V, Chapter 6: The Battle of the Pelennor Fields -- Snowmane - Inferno
  Two questions in this section. First, why is Snowmane buried in honor? He's merely a horse, despite being the horse of the King. Additionally, of all the verse in this chapter, Snowmane's epitaph is the only one _not_ in alliterative verse. This would imply to my mind that the honors were bestowed by Gondor, not Rohan. The heroic couplet is more 'Elvish'. Of Tolkien's 'epic' works of poetry, the tale of Luthien is in iambic rhyme, while that of Turin is in alliterative verse. I would imagine that the Numenoreans picked up this style from the Elves, and passed it on to their descendants in Gondor, while the Rohirrim retained their older style. So, to be brief, why the honor for Snowmane, and who bestows it? Secondly, there is this quote: "Green and long grew the grass on Snowmane's Howe, but ever black and bare was the ground where the beast [of the Witch-King] was burned." There are other instances in Tolkien's works where the bodies of the heros cause the ground to be fruitful (Finduilas' mound, the mounds of the Kings of Rohan, the hill where the dead of the Nirnaeth were buried) and of barren ground from the dead of evil. What sort of significance does this have, and what images or feelings does it evoke in you as a reader? Inferno.
• Here's one of those "the story wouldn't work any other way" comments - Blue Wizard
  I agree with the comment below that the Kings of Rohan were undoubtedly buried with their horses in the normal course of events. It is consistent with the raising of great mounds at Edoras, as well as with the historical practices of real Eurasian horse cultures. Moreover, Snowmane, though not of lineage a pure as Shadowfax perhaps, was likely one of the Mearas, reserved for the Kings alone, and treated even in death with great honor. So, it is not surprising that Snowmane would be accorded a special burial. Now we get to the practical issue. The Battle of the Pellenor Fields was March 15. The Coronation of Aragorn as King Elessar was May 1, and the wedding was on Midsummer Day. And Theoden's burial was after that if I recall correctly (and even if I don't the point is that it was a couple of months at least after his death). The embalmers of the Houses of the Dead in Minas Tirith were no doubt very accomplished, and preserving Theoden's body for burial was probably not such a bid deal for them. But the mummification of a horse is another thing entirely! While the Rohirrim were devoted to their horses, I suspect that carting a dead horse into the inner sanctums of the City to lay with Theoden's body along-side the mummified remains of the ancient Kings of Gondor for a couple of months would gravely offend the sensibilities of their hosts. Burying Snowmane with honor where he lay is the most practical alternative, all things considered.
• Hadn't even considered the time factor... - Jester_rm
  but that makes perfect sense to me
• very wise observation :) - Steve D
• Am I right in thinking that Snowmane was the only named horse to die? - Steve D
• I mean that we know the name of. - Steve D
• I believe so - Jester_rm
  at least in LOTR...I can't think of any others that are mentioned anyway
• maybe Tolkien.... - Steve D
  wnats to honor him as the representative of all horses.
• I think the stone was put there by people of Gondor - Kimi
  The carving was surely done right there in Gondor, some time after the War of the Ring. Your point about the verse forms makes this seem even more likely. As Jester said, horse and rider were a unit for the Rohirrim. It's said much earlier that their horses are almost like children to them. So it's a fitting mark of honour that Snowmane gets a real grave, rather than being burned like carrion. This, of course, ignores the probability that many other horses died that day, and I doubt if they all got graves. Digging a grave for a horse would be no mean feat. But Snowmane would have been due some extra honour through being Theoden's mount. The grassy mound recalls the Rohan of Snowmane's home. It's also, as you say, one of several references to fruitful graves of the good vs barren graves of the evil. The symbolism seems to be linking good with life (at least for those who come after you) and evil with ultimate and final destruction. It's ironic that the evil Men in Tolkien's mythology are seeking "life" prolonged beyond their natural span; what the Ringwraiths got was a barren undeath.
• he was a sacrifice - Steve D
  Great observation, I never thought of that. My thoughts would be that Theoden himself is a sacrifce for his people. He went to war knowing somehow that he would die and willing to do it since it was needed to inspire his people to win the war. Maybe Snowmane is in some way a symbol for Theoden's sacrifice, Snowmane's whiteness represents the purity of Theoden's motivation, and the honor given Snowmane is really for Theoden.
• When evil gives up the ghost... - Soothfast
  ...I can only ween that it poisons the little plot of land whereupon it shoves off. Why? Oh...dramatic effect, I guess. Let's face it: Tolkien dealt mainly with blacks and whites, with few shades of gray in between. The good were (generally) fair, blonde, tall, blue-eyed, and fertilized the ground wherever they died; and the bad were (generally) swarthy, dark-haired, short, black-eyed, and made barren the ground wherever they were slain.
• Not so - Sangarunya
  It's actually the gray tones that distinguish LOTR from trashy literature, which recipe is completely black and white.
  Characters like Saruman, Theoden, Denethor, and Gollum has aspects of both good and evil, an ambiguity unthinkable in most trivial literature.
• What of redemption? - Soothfast
  No one redeems himself save possibly Boromir. Tolkien's characters generally had a tough time saying "I'm sorry". At any rate I speak only in general terms. I know specific examples can be produced to gainsay my premise.
• The good peoples of the mythos are generally darkhaired. - Frode
  Both the noldor and the Numenoreans of Middle Earth (Gondor and Arnor) are dark haired. Also most hobbits have brown hair. In LotR Aragorn, Boromir, Faramir, Imrahil, Legolas, Elrond, Denethor all ahev dark hair. So does the dunedain of Arnor and the men of Gondor.
  It is interesting to note that the Men doing the greatest evils in the mythos are not 'swarthy' but Numenorean.
• That's an important point. - Steve D
  Evil comes from an individual's choices. So when a "higher" person like Saruman or the Mouth of Sauron becomes evil he ends up being more evil than "lower" people.
• I think this may - Stumpy
  be a case of someone with a preconcieved idea trying to force the conclusion onto facts that don't fit. Who's the one with the racial slant here, Soothfast?
• Your implication is irritating, too - Soothfast
  It's unsafe for me to say anything else about it, so I'll let it rest at that.

• Apologies if that - Stumpy
  came out different than I meant it. I was simply wondering if you had a predetermined thought about Tokien's views on race that this argument didn't support. I meant nothing about your thinking at all.

• 'Tis all right - Soothfast
  Better to say at least that much here, so your post doesn't dangle unanswered. You've already read my lengthier response in the Dark Tower, of course. Everything is peachy.
• Well then forget it - Soothfast
  I'm thinking in terms of the Silmarillion, too. The trend admittedly tones down in LotR; but again, I was making general observations which, were I to formally gather all the data on, I'd be willing to bet would yield me a linear regression coefficient of determination greater than 0.75.
• While I'm not arguing against your basic premise - Kimi
  (which is generally true), I do feel the need to point out that the "highest" men have dark hair and grey eyes. And as for being tall: as well as the Hobbits there are the Dwarves. I get the impression that the Haradrim are quite tall, too. I don't think Tolkien was necessarily height-ist.
• Unless of course the good are hobbits. - Steve D
• One of the rare exceptions, and still... - Soothfast
  ...The hobbits are still portrayed, it seems to me, as inferior to the likes of Elves and even Men. I don't wish to criticize Tolkien too heavily here, since these are very subjective perceptions on my part, but there you have it. Off the top of my head I cannot think of any blond-haired, blue-eyed villains in LotR. I'm sure I'm overlooking some.
• A thought just struck me - Kimi
  (Ouch) Grima Wormtongue is a man of Rohan. So he's presumably blond-haired and blue-eyed. And he is a villain. I'd actually never thought of him as Rohirrim before.
• I think he was tall too. - Steve D
• No he wasn't. He was a little twerp - Soothfast
  As for eye and hair color, I don't recall. Artist depictions of him always have him as a small, dark-haired, hunched-over sniveler.

• I used to think that too. - Steve D
  From his name and his description at the end when he's following Saruman around. But rethinking it he was really tall and handsome and was thus able to fool the king.
• But that's probably wrong! - Kimi
  He seems to be a man of Rohan; certainly it's never stated otherwise, and his name seems Rohirric enough. So unless he went straying, he's probably fair and blue-eyed. Artists have been known to descend into stereotypes. Shocking, I know. The description of Grima as "wizened" implies that he's quite old, or possibly misshapen in some way. I think he might be unusually small for a man of Rohan. But not dark.

• Grima would not have the satus he had in court if he was some obviously villinous ... - Ron Austin
  Sterotype. The Rohan would not give credence to someone who was not a warrior in his own right. IMHO This is why I always thought Alan Rickman would have been perfect in that role.

· Rickman has played some memorable villians - Ron Austin
And he has the talent to change from Dr. Jeckel to Mr. Hyde convincingly.
He certainly played that Part as the Sheriff of Notingham , the Terrorist in Die Hard, or the evil rancher in Quiggly Down Under.

• Maybe? - Soothfast
  I don't want to make a crusade over this, since none of this was intended to be the subject of the thread. However, on page 149 of my copy of The Two Towers I have this: "He laughed grimly, as he lifted his heavy lids for a moment and gazed on the strangers with dark eyes." This is said of Wormtongue, and while "dark" weighs against blueness, I'll admit it doesn't rule it out. Heh, but really, I don't wish to quibble about this. I made some sweeping generalizations in a post higher up (in response to Inferno's original questions), and do not now desire to get bogged down with adding up the blond heads and blue eyes in Tolkien's cosmology and stacking them up against all the others and seeing who's been naughty and who's been nice. Really, I have no idea why a piece of earth where an evil thing dies must remain barren for years to come.

• What about Legolas? - Feetamir
  He was a double agent. I'm sure of that. And Gandalf, he was blonde when he was younger, and I wouldn't want him at my house.
  They say Stalin was very charismatic when he was younger.
• Sometimes the signs of evil - Jester_rm
  endure far past the point where they have any effect other than to stir the memory...As to the verse forms, I have absolutely no idea. The Rohirrim are a horse based culture, burying Snowmane with Theoden I think would have been a common thing among them, especially if the horse had died with the rider in battle...in that sort of culture the horse and rider are more like a single fighting unit...the mounts are like family, since they spend so much time together.
• Book V, Chapter 6: The Battle of the Pelennor Fields -- 'slow-kindled courage' - Inferno
  Merry, riding with 'Dernhelm', is left with Eowyn and the dying Theoden as the Witch-King lands. Eowyn stands to face him, while Merry is unable to move for fear. Yet, as he watches Eowyn defy the Witch-King, "Pity filled his heart and great wonder, and suddenly the slow-kindled courage of his race awoke. He clenched his hand. She should not die, so fair, so desperate! At least she should not die alone, unaided." Merry has faced the Witch-King at least twice before, at Weathertop, and at the Fords. Both times, Aragorn was the driving force in the resistance. Here, Aragorn is absent. Merry must stand on his own courage. How do his actions here show the growth that the hobbits have made over the encounter at Weathertop? How are his actions different from Frodo's? And lastly, how does his 'slow-kindled courage' awakening preface the later actions of Frodo and Sam in Mordor? This is something I hadn't considered in early readings, but I feel that the growth we see from Merry and Pippin in Book V help foreshadow the strength of will of Sam and Frodo in Book VI. How do you feel this scene prepares us for later events in the book? Inferno.
• made of stern stuff - Aiya
  I don't remember Gandalf's exact quote.. but it was something about how you could know hobbits for years and they would still continue to surprise you and that they were made of sterner stuff then most people would guess. The hobbits are happy with their peaceful lives of over-eating in the Shire, but that doesn't mean they don't have a core of strength to match any man. It might take more to kindle that inner fire- but it is always there. And it will just burn all the brighter for being submerged.
  Take a look at each hobbit we really know in the story. Each one has a moment where the continuation of the story depends on their courage, and they all live up to the challenge. :) I love hobbits :)
• One of my all-time favorite moments in the book. - Annael
  I've always thought of Merry and Frodo as being the most alike in temperament. Where Frodo has to endure for a long time, Merry is called to act suddenly and against a foe far beyond his strength. If any hobbit's action foreshadows another, Sam's in standing up to Shelob comes closest. But Sam is ruled by love and rage when he acts; he acts from the heart. Merry's is a more cerebral decision; it comes from his integrity. He will "do the right thing" despite his fear. And in this he is indeed like Frodo.
• wonderful description... - vedhed
  I think the "slow kindled courage" description of the hobbits. They are by no means warriors, as they and Tolkien show us throughout. Then again they are a hearty and rugged little people. They prefer comfort no doubt, but one of the reasons gandalf said they would be good as ringbearers was that they would be slow to turn. They aren't as week as their size and their names would make them sound. I love this scene because you can just see the internal struggle the hobbit goet through an the realization that he would rather die with her than let Eowyn die alone. No, she's too grand and too beautiful for that and he wouldn't suffer her to fight alone. I love it. It shows us a lot about these little folks and I think it confirms what we already knew. That somewhere in the huge hearts of these little folk they would find the courage necessary to get the job done. The Lord of the Nazgul is not easy to beat. Heck, not even easy to fight because of that fear that goes before him. The struggle for Merry was to find something greater than this fear to help him master it. He found it, and in so doing found the courage to strike a huge blow for the good guys. I love this chapter and the two heroes in it. I also love that the big shot of the Nazgul didn't fall to Aragorn or Theoden or Faramir. But to a brave woman and a hobbit. Who'dathunkit? "No hero is immortal 'till he dies."
  -W.H. Auden

• The Nazgul like the Balrog project a feeling of unreasoning fear or terror... - Ron Austin
  which can only be overcome by someone of great will. Merry is frozen with fear until the Witch King focuses all his attention on Eowyn then Merry is able to move against him. As an aside is the ability to project this kind of terror a common trait of the minions of Morgoth? We see this trait in the Balrog, Glaurang the dragon, Sauron, and the Nazgul.
• He is hugely brave at this point. I find it telling - Kimi
  that it's pity for Eowyn that stirs his courage. I think that if he was facing the Witch-king on his own, he would simply cower down and be killed. Very few, after all, can stand before the Witch-king. But with someone he's grown to care for there before him being menaced, he rises to great heights. It's Sam's love for Frodo that feeds his courage in Mordor.
• "She should not die,... - Blue Wizard
  so young and beautiful. At least, she should not die alone." What a wonderful passage, so rich with meaning. This to me - not the "foul dwimmerlaik" exchange between Eowyn and the Nazgul - is the most moving in this chapter. Merry is paralyzed by fear, and yet in admiration, love, gratitude and pity, cannot suffer Eowyn to stand and die alone, and that thought alone permits him to strike a blow on her behalf, whatever the consequences to himself.
• yes - Steve D
  That's such a key point. Thanks Kimi and Blue Wizard. It is love for another person that gives us true courage. Maybe this is Tolkien's most important message.
• Lesson 1: Never piss off an armed hobbit - Jester_rm
  And never underestimate them. This is a mistake that many (including me) made, even when only reading about them. JRR forshadows their strength in many places in the story...how many times do we hear Gandalf say something like "There is much to them that is not seen", or "there is strength in them that even they do not know"? For instance, in the prologue, they survive the Fell Winter, loads of wolves....and an Orc invasion! How many people can say that?
• Book V, Chapter 6: The Battle of the Pelennor Fields -- 'No living man may hinder me!' - Inferno
  This is an oft-discussed topic, but who do you think is meant here by 'no living man', Eowyn or Merry? Or is it some combination of both? Tolkien indicates that only Merry's sword, wrought by one when the kingdom of Angmar was in power, had the ability to deal the Witch-King the kind of wound that he recieved, yet it was Eowyn's sword that ended his life. Thoughts? Inferno.
• One point I haven't seen brought up yet. - Annael
  Glorfindel made the prophecy after the Witch King, who was then the human King of Angmar, defeated the Arnorians in a battle of Men against Men. Everyone seemed to accept that he was a human problem, and in fact, he pretty much was. He never caused any trouble for the Elves or Dwarves. Only Men and, at the end, Hobbits were bothered by him. Tolkien's often accused of deus ex machina but this is a nice instance of "it's our problem and we'll take care of it without outside help, thanks." No doubt Gandalf COULD have taken him, but I like it that he didn't have to.
• The answer lies... - Sangarunya
  in the answer to the Witchking's tirade. It is Eowyn, not Merry, who answers him ("No living man am I"...etc.)
  In that way Tolkien included the key to what the nazgul meant. Quite simple, really.
• A whole lotta rubish? - Forgil
  There has been some controversy concerning the question as to who actually "killed" the Witch-King: Eowyn or Merry. The second question is whether he was literally "killed". Some people have interpreted the passage in question from The Return of the King as meaning Merry was the one really responsible for killing the Nazgul with his enchanted knife from the Barrow-downs and that Eowyn simply finished him off likesome sort of coup-de-grace. The arguments have waged on and on over relative versus absolute interpretations of various words and passages. Well, I was thumbing through LETTERS and came across a most remarkable passage. It had to do with Tolkien's criticism of someone's feeble attempt at an animated screen play for LotR. He is commenting on the fight with the Hobbits and Nazgul on Weathertop: "Aragorn did not `sing the song of Gil-galad'. Naturally: it was quite inappropriate, since it told of the defeat of the Elven-king by the Enemy. The Black Riders do not scream, but keep a more terrifying silence.
  Aragorn does not blanch. The riders draw slowly in on foot in darkness, and do not `spur'. There is no fight.
  Sam does not `sink his blade into the Ringwraith's thigh', nor does his thrust save Frodo's life. (If he had, the result would have been much the same as in III 117-20: the Wraith would have fallen down and the sword would have been destroyed)."[LETTER #210] This is pretty conclusive evidence that Merry did NOT "kill" the Witch-king, but merely wounded it - which allowed for Eowyn to "officially" defeat him. Now, the question remains whether Eowyn killed the Witch-king. Sam's blade is like Merry's blade - coming from the Barrowdowns and having been made by the Men of Westernesse with spells of ruin for the Witch-king, HOWEVER - Tolkien states that if Sam had stabbed the Nazgul he would have "fallen down" - this is a far cry from killing, vanquishing, mortally wounding, or whatever term you want to use. So, Merry gets the assist and Eowyn the point.
• Tolkien meant man not Man. - Frode
  When referring to the race of Men Tolkien uses capital M (both in plural and singular). In the prophesy of the Witchkings death he writes 'man'. Notice also the doubt expressed by the Black Captain when he sees that Eowyn is a woman. Add to this the emphasis on Merrys blade. It is the blade (made by the Men of Arnor) that makes the witchking vulnerable, but Eowyn deals the death blow to which the prophesy points.
• More Merry - Steve D
  I'll give them joint credit. But if I had to chose it would be Merry's sword that killed him. "Breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will" sounds like killing to me.
• I always thought it odd... - Soothfast
  ...That a weapon wrought in the days of Westernesse should be able to undo a Ringwraith of Sauron's. The "spell" which made the wraith a wraith was bound up in one of the Nine Great Rings which the Dark Lord held in the Barad-dur. Merry's dagger was of Westernesse make, but not made specifically with the offing of wraiths in mind. Or not? Either way, simply too convenient. It was the art of the Elves of Eregion which had a large part in the crafting of the Nine, so only elvish magic (or something stronger) ought to have had a chance of counteracting the power of the Nine. Sure, sure---it's Tolkien's cosmology, but still... Anyhow Merry was a hobbit and Eowyn a woman. So: bye-bye Witch King. He loses on a technicality.
• It was made with the Witch-king in mind - Kimi
  "But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king." And perhaps Elven-smiths helped train the smiths of the Dunedain.
• Diving in head first... - vedhed
  First off, thanks to everyone who encouraged me to post. I look forward to my first time before the Blue Wizard firing squad. I remember when I read this chapter thinking back to Macbeth when he says to (forget the guys name) that no man of woman born can kill him. To which McDuff answers that he was from his mother's womb untimely ripped, pretty much telling Macbeth that he was about to make a wizardkabob out of him. I think I've seen this plot device more than a few times here and there. It seems that the evil become drunk with their power and put their faith into these prophecies. In this case I don't think the Witch king was planning on seeing too many women on the battlefield. Eowyn had to sneak her way into the fray or else all might have been lost. I guess Gandalf coulda taken him down... MAYBE, but I think the odds were in WiKi's (lol at that)favor at a Vegas craps table that he wouldn't see A) a woman and B) a hobbit and especially C) a woman and a hobbit with a sword from a time when he was king together in the middle of battle. Kinda like getting hit by lightning twice while standing in line to collect for your winning lottery ticket, you know? But they had the answer for his prophecy and so they succeeded even where a great and newly revitalized king could not. I think Tolkien was very much into the "unlikely hero". Its because of this that we (the characters) should all struggle even against the odds in his stories because you never know where the big break will come. You just do you part as best you can and maybe it'll be you. The WiKi fell and songs were then sung about the 2 heroes. "No hero is immortal 'till he dies."
  -W.H. Auden

• the swordmaker - Steve D
  Great post, vh. I'm always moved by the sention of the swordmaker. He did something good and the results of it came thousands of years later. Kind of like casting your bread upon the waters.
• This reminds me of Macbeth. - Alnilam
  MACBETH: Thou losest labor.
  As easy mayst thou the intrenchant air
  With thy keen sword impress as make me bleed.
  Let fall thy blade on vulnerable crests;
  I bear a charmed life, which must not yield
  To one of woman born. MACDUFF: Despair thy charm,
  And let the angel whom thou still hast served
  Tell thee, Macduff was from his mother's womb
  Untimely ripp'd. There you also have the prophecy that seems to tell the villain he is invincible, because he didn't really look at all possible interpretations. I think that in the case of the Witch King, it was a combination of both Merry and Eowyn's acts that killed him.
• Interesting that you should mention Macbeth - Kimi
  Tolkien said in one of his letters that he was hugely disappointed in the "Birnham Wood" prophecy, and that this disappointment had an influence on the advent of the Ents: "Their [the Ents'] part in the story is due, I think, to my bitter disappointment and disgust from schooldays with the shabby use made in Shakespeare of the coming of 'Great Birnam Wood to high Dunsinane hill': I longed to devise a setting in which the trees might really march to war." (Letter 163, 1955).
• Interesting. - Alnilam
  The relation occurred to me when I was reading that chapter, but then I forgot about it.
  Isn't there some sort of related prophecy for Saruman or Isengard? I can't remember right now.
• There is yet a third possiblity - Blue Wizard
  That it was three individuals who killed the Witch King without violating Glorfindels Delphic prophesy rendered during the wars between Angmar and Arthedain: (1) Merry, who is not a man, but a Hobbit. (2) Eowyn, who is not a man, but a woman. (3) "He ... who wrought [the Sword of the Barrow Downs] slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young", who is not a living man, but dead.
• You are absolutely wrong!!!! - Steve D
  If you read the original prophecy. (ROTK Appendex A p412 Ballentine Books paperback edition) You will clearly see that Glorfindel said, "Not by the hand of man will he fall". It says nothing about "living man". Just because the Witch-king got it wrong doesn't mean we should too. This is just the kind of thing that gets in the way of people truly understanding Tolkien's work. I hope Mr. Jackson wasn't as careless when he read the books. If he was the movies will be a total disaster and we might as well put the books away too since they will be wrecked for all readers. Our only hope is that in a thousand years or so the movies will be forgotten and people can start enjoying the books again. But then again the same thing will probably happen. Oh yeah, ;)
• I like the idea of this threesome! - Kimi
  It's certainly a great advertisement for patience; the smith "who wrought it slowly long ago" was a forward thinker. It seems that the Witch-king's flesh is held together by an act of will, and Merry's sword, by a combination of the power that is about it and the fact that the Witch-king is not looking behind him, wounds him and breaks the concentration that feeds his will. Then Eowyn's "ordinary" sword is able to deliver a killing blow.
• this agrees with my theory - Ron Austin
  Magic is involved in keeping the Witch king animated.
  In middle Earth magic is only as effective as the will of the spellcaster. As long as the Witch King has confidence of his invincibility he can't be harmed. When the Witch King is confronted by Eowyn who fullfills the prophesy he doubts himself and loses the effective force of will required to keep his guard up. and when Merry hits him from behind and breaks his concentration this gives Eowyn the window to deliver a killing blow which shatters the spell animating the Lord of the Nazgul.
• great point RA - Steve D
  You're right first his confidence was shaken and then he was defeated.
• Yeah, I was thinking of that. - Alnilam
  But I wasn't sure who had made the sword, so I decided to leave it at that. But then, have a look at Jester's list of suspects. ^_^
• Typical prophetical misinformation - Jester_rm
  most prophecies (at least in literature) are inexact, to put it nicely. It makes it all the more dramatic when they turn out against the bad guys in the end. Can't have too much of that overconfidence! "No living man may hinder me"...let's see, that could be taken to mean that he COULD be hindered (or killed) by the following: any of the other wraiths (they're not living), any of the barrowwights (not living), any of the army of the dead (not living), any elf (not "man"), any of the wizards (not "men"), any orc dwarf or hobbit (not "men"), any female of any species (not "men"). So the only people he wouldn't have had to worry about were the males of the human species...not very comprehensive protection! As I understand the outcome of most of the arguments, the blow by Merry (and specifically his sword) "unknit the spell" which defended (and held together) the WiKi, but it was Eowyns blow that actually "killed" him.
• His big mistake. - Steve D
  He should have gone to Glorfindel and asked, "When you said not by the hand of man would I fall did you mean 'man' or 'Man'? Eowyn was not a man, but she was a Man.
• So would you say it also falls into the self-fulfilling category? - Inferno
  A lot of prophecies in myth (especially Greco-Roman) tend to be self-fulfilling. The classic example is Oedipus Rex. It was prophecied that he would kill his father and marry his mother, so his parents tried to dispose of him. When he found out about the prophecy, he left his adoptive parents (not knowing they weren't his real ones) because he didn't want to kill his father and marry his mother. Had his parents not disposed of him, the events following would probably never have happened. So, would the prophecy about the Witch-King fall into the same category? If he hadn't had the prophecy to rely on , would he have perhaps been more careful, and not allowed his guard to be lowered while facing Eowyn, and perhaps been able to defend himself? Inferno.
• I don't know if "self-fulfilling" is the right term... - Jester_rm
  but i think the big ego had a lot to do with it...add in a "prophecy" that he would only die under certain circumstances (and only define them quite vaguely), might have given him the feeling of invulnerability that lead to his downfall. It's like saying that a person get's a "prophecy" that he can't be killed by anyone. So he believes it, goes out and risks his life unnecessarily, and is killed in a single car accident. He was killed by the collision, not anyone. But his ego lead him to misinterpret the "prophecy" into believing he was totally immune.
• LOL. - Alnilam
  I think the witch king is looking at much higher insurance premiums if seen from that point of view.
  It really all comes to what is meant by the word 'man', doesn't it?
• Book V, Chapter 6: The Battle of the Pelennor Fields -- Death! - Inferno
  "'Eowyn, Eowyn!' he cried at last. 'Eowyn, how come you here? What madness or devilry is this? Death, death, death! Death take us all!'
  "Then without taking counsel or waiting for the approach of the men of the City, he spurred headlong back to the front of the great host, and blew a horn, and cried aloud for the onset. Over the field rang his clear voice calling: 'Death! Ride, ride to ruin and world's ending!'
  "And with that the host began to move. But the Rohirrim sang no more. Death they cried with one voice loud and terrible, and gathering speed like a great tide their battle swept about their fallen king and passed, roaring away southwards." As mentioned in last weeks chapter discussion, the Rohirrim 'sang as they slew', taking joy in the glory of the battle. At this point (after the death of Theoden, and the fall of Eowyn) it seems that Eomer has commanded the Rohirrim to kill the enemy with no regard for themselves. His call of 'Death', picked up by the Rohirrim, seems to indicate that they don't expect to live through the battle, that they will fight until they are all dead, where before it was that they will fight until they have won. What are your impressions of the change in the battle at this point? When reading this the first time, what were your expectations at this change? Inferno.
• I always expected another cavalry to charge to the rescue - Soothfast
  The Rohirrim rode to the rescue of the Gondorians of Minas Tirith, and I never forgot that there was that little "loose end" concerning Aragorn traipsing through the Paths of the Dead. Things would get worse and worse for the good guys on the field, and then out of nowhere Aragorn would appear with a great army of zombies which would slay the Orcs, Haradrim, and Easterlings. I didn't expect, however, that the rescue would arrive by way of the river. The loss of the Witch King was a great blow to Mordor's forces that day.
• The first time - Stumpy
  I read this chapter, I assumed that the humongous Dark Army would take huge losses from the Rohirrim and eventually kill them all. The despair of Eomer, and perhaps a death wish, following the apparent death of his kin and king, set a gloomy tone for the reader here.
• Overcome by despair. - septembrist
  I expected Eomer and his men to ride into certain death because Eomer is overcome with despair at the deaths of Theoden and Eowyn -much like Denethor's descent into despair.
  Whether the Rohirrim would achieve anything by their attack was doubtful and I expected some terrible defeat of the Rohirrim.
• Oh Inferno - Steve D
  You're not skipping the deaths of Theoden and the Witch-king are you?
• Book V, Chapter 6: The Battle of the Pelennor Fields-- Old English Alliterative Verse - Inferno
  Here I'm building on the concept Blue Wizard brought up last week. The language of this chapter has a unique characteristic. It floats in and out of the alliterative verse style. There are sections that are obviously intended to be taken this way, written in italics, and spaced out of the normal text, like Eomer's words when Theoden dies: Mourn not overmuch! Mighty was the fallen,
  meet was his ending. When his mound is raised,
  women then shall weep. War now calls us! In addition to these passages, there are several segments of normal text that also match this style. Consider these examples (passages are quoted twice, once as written in the text, the other broken into lines as it would look if written in alliterative verse.): "Right through the press drove Theoden Thengel's son, and his spear was shivered as he threw down their chieftain. Out swept his sword, and he spurred to the standard, hewed staff and bearer; and the black serpent foundered." "Right through the press drove
  Theoden Thengel's son, and his spear was shivered
  as he threw down their chieftain. Out swept his sword,
  and he spurred to the standard, hewed staff
  and bearer; and the black serpent foundered." And: "The knights of his house lay slain about him, or else mastered by the madness of their steeds were borne far away. Yet one stood there still: Dernhelm the young, faithful beyond fear; and he wept, for he had loved his lord as a father." "The knights of his house lay slain about him,
  or else mastered by the madness
  of their steeds were borne far away. Yet one stood there still:
  Dernhelm the young, faithful beyond fear;
  and he wept, for he had loved his lord as a father." These passages are not as 'clean' as the passages of actual verse, but the feel of the alliterative verse carries through this portion of the text. As the chapter passes from the valor of Rohan to the arrival of Aragorn and the Men of Gondor, there are less alliterative verse passages. Do you feel that Tolkien wrote these segments in deliberately different tones, or do you feel it was more subconcious? What effect does this sort of writing have for you in the chapter, both the 'quoted' sections of verse, and the more hidden segments of almost-verse? Inferno.
• That's an interesting point - Blue Wizard
  I like to think from time to time of the conceit of LOTR being translated, and of how the Red Book came to be composed. Some of Theoden's and Eomer's "speeches" are obviously in alliterative verse, and it makes me wonder whether these words are what they "really" spoke, or whether some of these chapters are in fact simply heavily plagarized (by Merry, probably) from the Rohirric Saga commemorating this War - a bit of quoting here an there with appropriate attribution, but even the main body of the text being mostly a "prosification" (is that a word?) of the Saga itself. But, getting away from the conceit, it is a masterful manipulation of literary styles by Tolkien. The use of alliterative verse form buried in the main body of the text not only gives these chapters a grandeur and a mythic quality, but it gives a particular Rohirric flavor to these chapters, which is appropriate given their large role in them.
• Good thoughts, Blue. - Inferno
  I also tend to think of the internal conceit from time to time, and I hadn't considered it at this stage of the novel. My thoughts on this were related to the outside mechanics of how it came to be written, not on the internal 'why's of the writing. One minor point, though. The actual quoted verse phrases are the only real instances in the chapter where the characters speak in alliterative phrasing. The 'almost-verse' passages (for lack of a better term) are all descriptions of what is occuring in the battle. Another (internal) reason that this chapter may contain so much of this style of language is that the Rohirrim place much more emphasis on valor in arms and combat than the Gondorians do. So the more detailed battle descriptions would have come from Rohan instead of Gondor. And they would tend more to follow the style of language in use by Rohan at the time. Inferno.
• That's an interesting thought. - Alnilam
  Yeah, I had forgotten the "Translation from the Red Book" concept. It's really likely that by the time the hobbits went back to Rivendell and told their respective parts of the story to Bilbo, they had been influenced by all the songs and poems that had been made about the battle.
• I think it was deliberate - Kimi
  at least in the revision. It does flow beautifully in and out of verse, and carries the reader with it. It's almost a manifestation of the Rohirrim's singing in battle. LOTR gains a lot from being read aloud. Once you've done that once, it's even easier to "hear" it in your head.
• You know, it really struck me when I was reading that. - Alnilam
  That first quote of hidden verse. ("Right through the press drove Theoden Thengel's son...")
  When I was reading it, I kind of thought "This became legend"
  I guess maybe that's why Tolkien used it. I don't know enough about literary styles to actually support that view, but that's my impression.
  Throughout the chapter there are passages describing events that became legendary. That will be remembered a thousand years to the day, and I think the writing style helps create that 'legendary' atmosphere.
• Sagas - Cheery Littlebottom
  I agree that JRRT seems to have used a style which is strongly reminiscent of Norse sagas, maybe to create the impression that these were events to be sung of and passed on down generations, or maybe it worked the other way round! Whatever, sagas were oral in tradition, and were passed on by being chanted or sung. This chapter is crying out for that. Even reading it silently you can feel the rhythm and if you read it out loud you can't help but fall into it. Personally that whole chapter stirs my soul. :o) "Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day's rising, we came singing in the sun, swords unsheathing..." How can you not want to be part of it!?
• Book V, Chapter 6: The Battle of the Pelennor Fields-- A hero's battlefield. - Inferno
  I'll be posting another message on this topic later in the week, once I find the appropriate texts out of other books to compare with, but I want to get some general impressions in this thread. This chapter starts with the arrival of Rohan at the Pelennor, and ends with the destruction of the forces of Mordor, and an enumeration of the dead heroes. The common soldiers are never discussed, named, or shown in detail. It's almost as if the battle hinges on the fate of Eomer, Imrahil, Aragorn and the Witch-King and the King of the Haradrim. To use a more modern analogy, it would be similar to describing the North African battles in WWII by discussing only the movements and happenings of Rommel and Patton. This analogy is slightly flawed, as neither Rommel or Patton participated in the fighting, where Eomer, et al. did. What is your impression of the focus of the battle from the hero's perspective? How does it make the book stronger or weaker to you at this point? Inferno.
• In the case of Eomer and even more so Aragorn, - Kimi
  we've already "got to know them" quite well, and care about their personal fates. This, to me at least, makes the flow of the battle more heart-stopping than it might otherwise be. It's very hard to envisage the fate of thousands of men; far easier to follow a handful. That's just one aspect, of course. The points made by others in this thread all strike me as valid, too.
• Exactly. - Alnilam
  The story already has lots of important characters. I think introducing somebody new at this point and tell the story from their point of view would make it far less interesting than going 'side by side' so to speak with the main characters and key figures in the battle.
• Well, you have to focus on someone, right? - Alnilam
  I think the fact that they focus on the heroes is because we haven't seen Aragorn since he rallied the dead, and suddenly he reappears unexpectedly.
  AND he had promised Eomer they would battle together, so that's something that has to be seen. And if the story was being told by another person, it would be difficult to keep track of them in such a battle. Also, I think the fact that Aragorn and Eomer go through the battle unharmed is counterbalanced by the fact that: 1. Theoden is dead
  2. Eowyn is badly hurt and thought dead at first
  3. Merry is injured
  4. Faramir is dying I guess that's enough bad luck for one chapter, even though we end up hearing more about the losses at the end. But we last hear of them as we first did: They are lamented as they were cheered by the people of Gondor as they arrived.
• I think that this focus - Blue Wizard
  on the handful of heroes would be problematical but for the fragment of the Rohirric saga which closes the chapter. The course of battle seems, because of this focus, to turn almost entirely on the individual exploits of Eomer and Aragorn, although Tolkien is careful to note that their fortune and skill is what gets them through the battle unscathed - suggesting in the omission a measure of the indiscriminate carnage that is raging about them. But the roll of the dead in the song of the "Mounds of Mundburg" to me cures entirely whatever defect one may find in the narrative. One stave says it all: "Death in the morning and at day's ending
  lords took and lowly. Long now they sleep
  under grass in Gondor by the Great River."
• re - Frode

Inferno
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Apr262009,4:18am

Post #43 of 65(29525 views)
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• Pyre: a "what if" question - Kimi

• I hadn't considered this passage carefully before - Blue Wizard
  "Denethor started as one waking from a trance, and the flame died in his eyes, and he wept; and he said: "Do not take my son from me! He calls for me.' "'He calls,' said Gandalf, 'but you cannot come to him yet. For he must seek healing on the threshold of death, and maybe find it not. Whereas your part is to go out to the battle of your City, where maybe death awaits you. This you know in your heart.' "'He will not wake again,' said Denethor. 'Battle is in vain. Why should we wish to live longer? Why should we not go to death side by side?' "'Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of your death,' answered Gandalf. 'And only the heathen kings, under the domination of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death.'" I think that the exchange between Gandalf and Denethor has less to do with what made Denethor finally "snap" than it is a repeat of the recurrent theme of death and deathlessness - the desire of the Elves to forestall the passage of time, the unnatural extension of life and false immortality by the operation of the rings on mortals, the fear of death by the Numenorians - regretting the choice of Elros - and in this case, the desire to hasten death on the part of Denethor, to choose the manner and time of his passing - the flip side of the same coin. Each of Faramir and Denethor have an uncertain appointment with death, and it is that, rather than Denethor's duty as Steward to lead the battle that it seems to me that this exchange is about. Indeed, after this exchange, it appears that Denethor was uncertain: "Denethor followed [Gandalf, carrying Faramir out of Rath Dinen], and stood trembling, looking with longing on the face of his son. And for a moment, while all were silent and stil, watching the Lord in his throes, he wavered. "'Come!' said Gandalf. 'We are needed. There is much that you can yet do.' And THEN, he snaps, going back to pick up the Palantir, and ranting about how everything is lost; the black fleet is sailing up the river; Sauron has vast forces they can't hope to overcome; you're all against me...etc.. I think it is a matter of Gandalf saying "There is still a which you can do" juxtaposed against Denethor's despair in his genuine belief that all is indeed hopeless. I'm not certain that there is anything that Gandalf could say that would dissuade him at this point, or that he made any mistake in talking to him the way that he did.

• It seems like... - Steve D
  Denethor wants he and Faramir to die together and that's what Gandalf was reacting against.
• Pyre: Flotsam and Jetsam - Gorel
  Gandalf says, "But he [Lord of the Nazgul] has not gone without woe and bitter loss. And that might have been averted but for the madness of Denethor." Does he mean that he could have prevented the death of Theoden? The Houses of Healing are said to be the only place in the city with a "garden and a greensward with trees". Doesn't it seem strange that a great city wouldn't have parks or lawns?
• I think Gandalf might also be speaking - Kimi
  of Eowyn. At that stage it's uncertain whether she'll live or die. As to how much Gandalf's presence on the field of battle might have changed things: perhaps Gandalf would have defeated the Lord of the Nazgul. In that case Theoden might have survived, and Eowyn wouldn't have faced the Witch-king. And perhaps the course of the battle would have resulted in fewer deaths among the "good guys".
• Houses of Healing - Morwen

• It is easy to forget - Green Wizard
  that Minas Anor and Minas Ithil were constructed as fortresses guarding the principal city of Osgiliath. Middle Earth in the Third Age is significantly depopulated, compared to the Second Age - it is a measure of how far that Minas Ithil and Osgiliath are entirely abandoned by Gondor (to say nothing of fortresses like the Towers of the Teeth and the Tower of Cirith Ungol) and even Minas Tirith is largely empty - though in part due to the evacuation of the women, young and very old inhabitants in anticipation of the battle. But, it wasn't intended as a normal city - it was intended as a fortress. But, in the twilight of the Numenorian culture, it must serve both functions. If it were warmer today, I'd celebrate by drinking a wee bit o' Guinness out on me Patty O'Furniture!

• We'll never know . . . - Annael
  what parks there might have been in Osgiliath!

• I imagine - Green Wizard
  that it was a beautiful city, with the Anduin running through its center, fantastic wide bridges that would be one of the Seven Wonders of Middle Earth, and beautiful parks and gardens. But, as for Minas Tirith and its outposts, being build almost purely for a military function, the characterization of the Numenorians by the Wose as a race that ate stone, is probably easy to understand. If it were warmer today, I'd celebrate by drinking a wee bit o' Guinness out on me Patty O'Furniture!

• my two cents - Steve D
  It seems like Gandalf could have saved Theoden, but then Theoden foresaw his own death, so maybe not. It is sad that there are not more trees, but then it was originally a fortress not a city.
• Pyre: Steward's Family - Gorel
  Denethor's failure with the palantir echoes Boromir's failure with the Ring. It's said Denethor wisely declined to use the palantir for a long time, knowing he wasn't powerful enough, but his wisdom failed. Boromir's confidence in his own strength tempts him to use a weapon against the Enemy that he can't handle. How are Denethor and Boromir similar? How are they both different from Faramir? What do they have in common with Faramir? Is it possible that Denethor's love for Faramir was stifled until the end because Faramir was too much like a king, and not enough like a steward?
• The obvious difference is that - Kimi
  Faramir made no attempt to take the Ring, knowing it to be a thing beyond his or anyone's use for good. As someone pointed out in an earlier chapter, Faramir was not exposed to the temptation of the Ring for long, unlike Boromir. But I think we're meant to believe that Faramir would have resisted successfully, had he been part of the Fellowship instead of Boromir(which could lead to a "what if"...). Denethor is not exposed to the Ring, but he makes it clear that he believes the Ring would not tempt him to use it. His pride shows itself yet again. Faramir knew there was danger in this thing; Denethor considers himself above such danger. There's such a complex relationship between Denethor and Faramir, one that I find fascinating. I think what Denethor mostly resents in Faramir is the fact that he is wiser and more noble than his older brother, as if he had somehow usurped Boromir's birthright. At some level I think Denethor knows that his own neglect of Faramir made him susceptible to becoming a "wizard's pupil", and one of the surest paths to resenting someone is knowing that you have wronged them. The prouder the person who has done the wrong, the more likely they are to justify the wrong by blaming the person they have wronged. Only when Denethor is faced with what seems the imminent death of Faramir are the layers of pride, coldness and resentment stripped away, and the plain fact that this is his child, the little boy whose face perhaps used to light up when he saw his father, is brought forcibly to Denethor's mind. I find this section quite a tear-jerker.
• Arrogance - Annael
  Boromir, the first-born and favorite of his father, was inculcated with all of his father's pride and belief that they were in fact worthy of being called king. Faramir, long kept in his brother's shadow, escaped this. I don't think of Faramir as kingly, however. He strikes me as more inclined to scholarship. He has his family's charisma and sense of duty, which makes him a good leader, but I think left to his own inclinations he would have become a teacher of some sort.
• the need to control - Steve D
  Besides pride, as you said, the need or desire to control others seems to be one of the greatest sources of evil in Middle-earth. Denethor felt that the only way for him to be successful was to control his sons. When Faramir wouldn't be controlled Denethor reacted with anger and resentment.
• Pyre: Ooh, that Mithrandir! - Gorel
  Both Denethor and Saruman seem partially motivated by their jealousy of the power Gandalf has and the respect he receives. Denethor is especially angry to see Faramir's attention to Gandalf, and more than once refers to him as a "wizard's pupil". He's also angered by Gandalf's intermittent intrusions into his authority. Saruman seems to have resented Gandalf at least since learning that Galadriel favored him as head of their Council. Both of them mistrust Gandalf, and this is a part of their undoing. And sadly, the more they compare themselves to Gandalf, the more insecure and spiteful they become. Pride seems to be the ultimate sin in the Lord of the Rings, and humility the greatest protection from evil.
• An interesting snippet from - Kimi
  the chapter "The Istari" in Unfinished Tales: "Merry he [Gandalf] could be, and kindly to the young and simple, and yet quick at times to sharp speech and the rebuking of folly; but he was not proud, and sought neither power nor praise, and thus far and wide he was beloved among all those that were not themselves proud." Saruman and Denethor provide an eloquent commentary on the response of those who were themselves proud.
• The characters who - Stumpy
  desire power and seek to amass more are the 'bad' guys in all the books. Even Thorin comes off negatively that way.
• I think that's the "message" - Steve D
  Evil is trying to keep what you have by controlling or hurting others. Good is helping people be what they want to be even if causes you to have loss.
• I sometimes wonder if... - Patty
  "Evil" in the person of either a fallen maia, an istari or even Satan the devil doesn't already know that "Good" is predestined in the end to win, and that knowledge causes the jealousy that fuels them and keeps them going but ultimately brings about their defeat. Of course this is not true of Denethor, not that he's really evil, but of powerful evil beings it's a possibility.
• I think so, also... - Steve D
  their pride will not let them admit they made a wrong decision.
• Pyre: Denethor and Gandalf - Gorel
  How amazed is Denethor when Gandalf makes his sword fly away? Or when he jumps up and grabs Faramir? What does Denethor think Gandalf is? Has he underestimated him? And what exactly are the rules limiting Gandalf's use of his native powers? Because sometimes it seems a little like the prime directive; everybody talks about it, but when it's convenient, it goes out the window. Any insights into this would be welcome.
• Interesting questions (again!) - Kimi
  I think Denethor probably thought Gandalf was no more than a "wise man" (which is what Istar means, we're told) who had learned much of his wisdom by consorting with Elves. Denethor is so self-absorbed (with "self" including the whole of Gondor in his vision) that I doubt if he's wondered too much about just what Gandalf is. I don't think he would have known of Gandalf's Valinorean origin. I doubt if Denethor had ever seen Gandalf display his power before this scene at the pyre. But Denethor seems too far gone at this point to be startled by Gandalf's sudden show of power.
• LOL! - Annael
  love that bit about the prime directive. But I don't think it applies. Gandalf was allowed to use his powers to combat Sauron, and Sauron's was the will that drove Denethor to madness. Just as Gandalf can use them against Saruman who had also fallen under Sauron's influence. I think Denethor DID underestimate Gandalf.
• I think Gandalf is almost universally underestimated. - Frodo Gardner
  Tolkien doesn't bother to explain within the text of LOTR the constraints upon Gandalf's use of power, so as you read the story, you are really given only hints of his innate resources and never see the full force of his being in action. One of the most telling episodes regarding his true power is his rescue of Faramir returning from Ithilien when Gandalf dispels Nazgul with a beam of white light. Even in that instance, there is not really an indication that the full force of Gandalf's strength was used - I am left with the impression that it was more a reflexive act (like swatting at a fly) than a deliberate marshalling of all his power. Denethor misunderstood Gandalf's mission all along, as shown by his suspicion of the wizard's motives and influence on Faramir. It is not surprising that, as a corollary to that misunderstanding, he would also fail to grasp the depth of power that was in Gandalf.
• Maybe Pippin... - Steve D
  when he begged Gandalf to save Faramir somehow made the condition for him to use his powers more than he normally did.
• Pyre: Sacrifice - Gorel
  I was struck by the perfect contrast between Denethor and Frodo. Both of them are in situations that are apparently hopeless, but one carries on and the other kills himself out of spite. Tolkien described Frodo's dilemna as a "sacrificial" situation in his letters; he believed that sometimes people were asked to do things they couldn't hope to do, but still the only virtuous course of action was to continue. It's the point of view of someone with deep faith, and a belief in something greater than themselves. I think Denethor's pride in his station and in the greatness of Gondor blinded him to a faith in something greater, whereas Frodo's humility left him open to it. It reminds me of a powerful passage in Minas Tirith, when Gandalf says to Denethor: "'But I will say this: the rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come. For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'" Gandalf, in renouncing dominion over any part of the world, is accepting responsibility for all of it. I don't think Denethor was capable of understanding this. Denethor says: "But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated."
• It's pride again, I think - Kimi
  Denethor no doubt thinks that he's sacrificed himself to Gondor all his life: denying himself a peaceful family life; seeing his wife wither away and die of sadness; "spending" even his sons in the service of Gondor. I think that he's seen Gondor as an extension of himself. But now, with the coming of Aragorn, he can no longer see himself and Gondor as one. Defeat by Sauron means the downfall of all; victory by the West might mean the restoration of the King. This, I think, is what Denethor means by the "honour abated" that he will not accept. The irony is that the restoration of Gondor's glory would mean a lessening of Denethor's personal glory, as he would no longer be a ruling steward. And this sacrifice he will not accept. It's an interesting contrast with the attitudes of Elrond and Galadriel, for whom all outcomes of the War would also result in sadness and fading.
• excellent point - Stumpy
  He'd rather lose Gondor than give up his position at the top of the heap to a restored king. A good failure of character to compare to all the noble self sacrificers.
• Pyre: Embalming - Gorel
  Here is one of my favorite quotes from Tolkien's letters: "But the Elves are not wholly good or in the right. Not so much because they had flirted with Sauron; as because with or without his assistance they were 'embalmers'. They wanted to have their cake and eat it: to live in the mortal historical Middle-earth because they had become fond of it (and perhaps because they there had the advantages of a superior caste), and so tried to stop its change and history, stop its growth, keep it as a pleasaunce, even largely a desert, where they could be 'artists' - and they were overburdened with sadness and nostalgic regret. In their way the Men of Gondor were similar: a withering people whose only 'hallows' were their tombs." I wonder how much of Denethor's madness was cultivated in him since birth as a morbid reverence for the dead. In a way, the Stewards are crippled by their own view of themselves as caretakers of a greater past. Denethor even clearly resents Faramir for being too much like the old kings, as if he he doesn't know his place, and should somehow have the grace to mask his own nature. I wonder if Denethor was ever able to have the faith in himself that a simple hobbit like Sam demonstrates when tempted by the Ring at Cirith Ungol. What does it say about a people that they keep a throne empty for generations while embalming their Stewards in elaborate mansions?
• The good old days. - septembrist
  It does seem that Gondor was preserving the past at the expense of the present. It is a human foible to long for the old days and decry the present. It can become a powerful and dangerous narcotic. I think Gondor had succumbed to it, especially Denethor, given their situation against the forces of Mordor.
• In this case - Stumpy
  the past really was more glorious than the present, unlike in real life, when the good old days are blatantly sugarcoated. It's understandable there would be nostalgia, but in this case it holds men back from reaching their potential.
• To take pride only in how glorious - Kimi
  things were in the past, and how unattainable is that past glory, does seem a path to despair. By refusing to countenance any claim to the throne from the line of Isildur, Denethor condemns Gondor to being kingless forever. An empty throne; a city with few children and a dwindling population; the most venerated object in the city a dead tree that has (apparently) left no descendants. Even were they to win the war against Sauron, Gondor's future seems at this point to be a slow but inevitable decline; a barrenness that might end in nothing better than a city of ghosts and bandits. Well-housed ghosts.
• Pyre: Beregond - Gorel
  Beregond is something of an everyman in the story, a lowly guard in stark contrast with all the great lords. Beregond faces a difficult choice between duty and love, obedience and honor. But ultimately he defies Denethor to his face to save Faramir. Beregong reminds me of the hobbits in this way, especially Merry and Pippin. They're all thrust into situations above their heads, and their inner strengths give them the courage to step up and do the right thing in horrible situations.
• Blind obedience vs doing the right thing - Kimi
  Something I do have a bit of trouble believing is that Denethor's servants would help him lay a pyre for Faramir, even going so far as fighting Beregond to the death to get the murderous tools to Denethor. If they knew that Faramir was still living, this really was blind obedience.
• suggestive - Gorel
  It suggests what kind of ruler he's been that they would obey him to this extent, even if we assume that they believe Faramir is mortally wounded and the city is doomed.
• Pyre: Pacing - Gorel
  The Pyre of Denethor opens with the close to an amazing cliffhanger. Two chapters earlier it seemed that Gandalf was about to be crushed by the Lord of the Nazgul at the broken gates of Minas Tirith. Tolkien cuts away to the Ride of the Rohirrim, the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, and the demise of the Black Captain. There's more to effective action in fiction than just swords and blood; pacing is critical. Here Tolkien frames his most climactic battle scenes with a cliffhanger personal confrontation between two of his most impressive characters. When I return to Gandalf sitting on his horse motionless at the gates, I'm breathless. But this is only the beginning of the chapter. Tolkien immediately ratchets up the tension again by placing Faramir's life, and maybe the fate of the city, in the balance. It's a precarious roller coaster ride of reader emotion and tension.
• I suppose it's just me... - Blue Wizard
  but I actually have a difficult time caring about Faramir as much as I think that Tolkien intended. He introduces him in TTT and then he shows up here again in ROTK as a major center of attention and the point about which many of the principal subplots revolve. Yeah, he has a lot or outstanding qualities: Trustworthy,
  Loyal,
  Helpful,
  Friendly,
  Courteous,
  Kind,
  Obedient,
  Cheerful,
  Thrifty,
  Brave,
  Clean,
  and Reverent. But, to me that's exactly the problem. He's a Boy Scout. And somehow, I don't care. And I can't figure out why Gandalf is fretting about where is he and what he's doing, and while I certainly don't want him to die, especially by being burned alive, I also can't quite figure out why Gandalf is dropping everything at the cliff-hanger point of the battle, to go find out what is happening to Faramir right now. Prioritize, for goodness sake!
• More than just Faramir. - septembrist
  Beregond is fighting a little war by himself. If Gandalf had not come Beregond would have slain more than two servants and he probably would have been killed as well resulting in Faramir's death. Thus Gandalf stops a bloodbath at the House of Stewards that only he could have stopped. As stated before, Gandalf was the only one to help in this situation and he knew it.
  The death of Faramir would have been a great blow to Gondor even after victory. Aragorn's transition to power may have been easier with Faramir gladly accepting his kingship.
• That's interesting, Blue. I'm definitely a member - Kimi
  of the Faramir fan club. I see what you mean about the too-good-to-be-true list of virtues, but somehow I do care about him. I think it's partly because I envisage his childhood and growing up quite clearly; more so than for any other LOTR character, I think. As for why Gandalf turned aside to rescue Faramir: dramatic necessity? :-) That probably is part of it: we need to see the weak and humble achieve the valiant deeds here. But I think the internal (to the story) reason is that Gandalf sees that he is the only person who can save Faramir at this point. There're armies out on the Pelennor; between Faramir and the pyre there's only Beregond. Gandalf has the humility to know that he can't turn the battle on his own, but he may be able to save Faramir. The fact that Pippin's hanging on his sleeve and yelling at him also helps (as Gorel said in a more refined way :-) ) I think he also wants to save Denethor from the sins of suicide and murder. Given Gandalf's angelic nature, that could be a significant motivation.
• I've wondered... - Steve D
  why Faramir seems to be so important to Gandalf that he saves him rather than the many people he could save if he rode into the battle.
• Well, the role of trying to persuade an ally - Frodo Gardner
  to repent of an evil fits Gandalf's mission better than going out on the field with white lights blazing. He tried to save not only Faramir, but Denethor. In so doing, he tried to protect the future of Gondor and it's people. Also, events in battles cannot be fully swayed by merely one person whose power, though great, is still limited. Good people were going to die even if Gandalf had ridden out into the Pelennor instead of rushing to Rath Dinen. We cannot understimate the importance of leadership to the health of a kingdom. The loss of Faramir would have been a grievous blow to the morale of all Gondor during the war, and to Aragorn's kingship after the victory was won. Great leaders don't govern as effectively without excellent people in significant positions around them. Yeah, it was a stinky choice no matter what Gandalf had done. But I am a Faramir fan, too, and I was rooting for his rescue. I guess I admire the mingling of qualities such as faithfulness, wisdom, mercy and courage that we find in Faramir.

• Thanks FG great points. - Steve D
• Pippin - Gorel
  For me, as a reader, it feels like a dilemna as much for Pippin as for Faramir. I suppose it's because he's been put in this horrible position and he's completely in over his head. The intimidating lord he's pledged himself to has gone crazy and is trying to kill his son in the middle of what appears to be the apocolypse, and he rushes off into this vast city to find the only person who might be able to help him, Gandalf. I don't think I would be in as much suspense if it weren't related from Pippin's point of view. I'm not quite sure why Gandalf thought saving Faramir was more important than defending the city either, except that I'd guess it was because of something he foresaw.
• Pyre of Denethor - Gorel
  Why aren't you discussing this chapter?
• Oops, I didn't see your message below - Annael
  and have been waiting for you to start!
• If people would prefer - Gorel
  I can use the traditonal thread per topic style. I was trying this out to see if it might be more participatory. I threw out some ideas, and if someone wants to talk about one of them, they can just start a thread. But then, that would be their thread, not mine, and people would be responding to them, not me. Does that make sense? I was trying to reduce the impression of a speaker and an audience, and get more of an open discussion going that's not centered on me. It's just an experiment, and if people aren't digging it, I can go back to the more traditional style.
• I think it's better to have one question per post. - Steve D
• I'll do that Steve D - Gorel
  Thanks for the input. I can understand why people would prefer the thread per topic format, and it's what we're used to. I'm afraid it's also possible to outlast one's welcome. I just hope everyone gets a chance to talk about Denethor's delirious demise, and that people bring up the things I didn't mention.
• because it's kind of depressing? - Steve D
• Maybe we're all burnt out. - Narya
• Careful....he might - Jester_rm
  start a flame war =)
• LOL :) - Steve D
• Pyre: Sacrifice - Gorel
  I was struck by the perfect contrast between Denethor and Frodo. Both of them are in situations that are apparently hopeless, but one carries on and the other kills himself out of spite. Tolkien described Frodo's dilemna as a "sacrificial" situation in his letters; he believed that sometimes people were asked to do things they couldn't hope to do, but still the only virtuous course of action was to continue. It's the point of view of someone with deep faith, and a belief in something greater than themselves. I think Denethor's pride in his station and in the greatness of Gondor blinded him to a faith in something greater, whereas Frodo's humility left him open to it. It reminds me of a powerful passage in Minas Tirith, when Gandalf says to Denethor: "'But I will say this: the rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come. For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'" Gandalf, in renouncing dominion over any part of the world, is accepting responsibility for all of it. I don't think Denethor was capable of understanding this. Denethor says: "But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated."
• 'like the heathen kings...' - Frode
  This is one of a very few instances in which religion enters the picture in LotR. Gandalf mentioning of 'heathen kings' is remarkable.
• Frode's response - Gorel
  Frode said:
  I agree about the difference between Gandalf/Frodo and Denethor, but I think one should consider the reason for why Denethor is like he is. He has fought his doomed mental battle with Sauron for years and years. This we know has driven him to madness and hopelesness.
• failure - Gorel
  Even in his most desperate situation, Denethor was behind the walls of Minas Tirith, surrounded by loyal servants, and with an army at his command. I agree his situation seemed hopeless, especially because of Sauron's control of the palantir. But Frodo was almost alone, in the very heart of Mordor, surrounded by orcs, half starved and parched, in a constant spiritual struggle with the Enemy's Ring, and he'd been poisoned by a giant spider and stripped and beaten. If he could continue, I have to think it was possible for Denethor to continure.
  Of course, Frodo did fail at the end as well. So I suppose you could say that Denethor's madness and suicide were just the equivelant of Frodo's claiming the Ring at the end. I still think Denethor got off easy compared to Frodo though :)
• Pyre of Denethor leading comments/questions - Gorel
  I've put my leading comments/questions for the Pyre of Denethor here and on the web; click here to see them. I hope it gives everyone a chance to do any research or cognabulation they'd like to do before the discussion opens. I won't be starting a thread for each topic myself. If you have something to say about one of these topics, please start a thread (or respond to someone else if they start one). And if there's a topic that I didn't touch on that you'd like to bring up, please do. And ignore any topics you don't find interesting. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pacing
  The Pyre of Denethor opens with the close to an amazing cliffhanger. Two chapters earlier it seemed that Gandalf was about to be crushed by the Lord of the Nazgul at the broken gates of Minas Tirith. Tolkien cuts away to the Ride of the Rohirrim, the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, and the demise of the Black Captain. There's more to effective action in fiction than just swords and blood; pacing is critical. Here Tolkien frames his most climactic battle scenes with a cliffhanger personal confrontation between two of his most impressive characters. When I return to Gandalf sitting on his horse motionless at the gates, I'm breathless. But this is only the beginning of the chapter. Tolkien immediately ratchets up the tension again by placing Faramir's life, and maybe the fate of the city, in the balance. It's a precarious roller coaster ride of reader emotion and tension. Beregond
  Beregond is something of an everyman in the story, a lowly guard in stark contrast with all the great lords. Beregond faces a difficult choice between duty and love, obedience and honor. But ultimately he defies Denethor to his face to save Faramir. Beregong reminds me of the hobbits in this way, especially Merry and Pippin. They're all thrust into situations above their heads, and their inner strengths give them the courage to step up and do the right thing in horrible situations. Embalming
  Here is one of my favorite quotes from Tolkien's letters: "But the Elves are not wholly good or in the right. Not so much because they had flirted with Sauron; as because with or without his assistance they were 'embalmers'. They wanted to have their cake and eat it: to live in the mortal historical Middle-earth because they had become fond of it (and perhaps because they there had the advantages of a superior caste), and so tried to stop its change and history, stop its growth, keep it as a pleasaunce, even largely a desert, where they could be 'artists' - and they were overburdened with sadness and nostalgic regret. In their way the Men of Gondor were similar: a withering people whose only 'hallows' were their tombs." I wonder how much of Denethor's madness was cultivated in him since birth as a morbid reverence for the dead. In a way, the Stewards are crippled by their own view of themselves as caretakers of a greater past. Denethor even clearly resents Faramir for being too much like the old kings, as if he he doesn't know his place, and should somehow have the grace to mask his own nature. I wonder if Denethor was ever able to have the faith in himself that a simple hobbit like Sam demonstrates when tempted by the Ring at Cirith Ungol. What does it say about a people that they keep a throne empty for generations while embalming their Stewards in elaborate mansions? Sacrifice
  I was struck by the perfect contrast between Denethor and Frodo. Both of them are in situations that are apparently hopeless, but one carries on and the other kills himself out of spite. Tolkien described Frodo's dilemna as a "sacrificial" situation in his letters; he believed that sometimes people were asked to do things they couldn't hope to do, but still the only virtuous course of action was to continue. It's the point of view of someone with deep faith, and a belief in something greater than themselves. I think Denethor's pride in his station and in the greatness of Gondor blinded him to a faith in something greater, whereas Frodo's humility left him open to it. It reminds me of a powerful passage in Minas Tirith, when Gandalf says to Denethor: "'But I will say this: the rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come. For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'" Gandalf, in renouncing dominion over any part of the world, is accepting responsibility for all of it. I don't think Denethor was capable of understanding this. Denethor says: "But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated." Denethor and Gandalf
  How amazed is Denethor when Gandalf makes his sword fly away? Or when he jumps up and grabs Faramir? What does Denethor think Gandalf is? Has he underestimated him? And what exactly are the rules limiting Gandalf's use of his native powers? Because sometimes it seems a little like the prime directive; everybody talks about it, but when it's convenient, it goes out the window. Any insights into this would be welcome. Ooh, that Mithrandir!
  Both Denethor and Saruman seem partially motivated by their jealousy of the power Gandalf has and the respect he receives. Denethor is especially angry to see Faramir's attention to Gandalf, and more than once refers to him as a "wizard's pupil". He's also angered by Gandalf's intermittent intrusions into his authority. Saruman seems to have resented Gandalf at least since learning that Galadriel favored him as head of their Council. Both of them mistrust Gandalf, and this is a part of their undoing. And sadly, the more they compare themselves to Gandalf, the more insecure and spiteful they become. Pride seems to be the ultimate sin in the Lord of the Rings, and humility the greatest protection from evil. Steward's Family
  Denethor's failure with the palantir echoes Boromir's failure with the Ring. It's said Denethor wisely declined to use the palantir for a long time, knowing he wasn't powerful enough, but his wisdom failed. Boromir's confidence in his own strength tempts him to use a weapon against the Enemy that he can't handle. How are Denethor and Boromir similar? How are they both different from Faramir? What do they have in common with Faramir? Is it possible that Denethor's love for Faramir was stifled until the end because Faramir was too much like a king, and not enough like a steward? Flotsam and Jetsam
  Gandalf says, "But he [Lord of the Nazgul] has not gone without woe and bitter loss. And that might have averted but for the madness of Denethor." Does he mean that he could have prevented the death of Theoden? The Houses of Healing are said to be the only place in the city with a "garden and a greensward with trees". Doesn't it seem strange that a great city wouldn't have parks or lawns?
• A lengthy answer (Denethor is my favourite character after all). - Frode
  Denethors madness:
  I do not think any 'madness' was cultivated in Denthor at an early stage. In Denethor I see the classical arrogance and pride of the Numenoreans, but also an incredible goodness. A strong sense of what is good and what is evil (you might think ME mad now but wait :).
  Denethor changed much after the death of his wife (whom he must have loved very much), but I think that his path towards madness started the day he looked into the palantir the first time: this requires an enormously strong will. He is from the first moment pitted against the greatest power in middle earth. A power far beyond him (indeed beyond anyone in middle earth ultimately). Compare saruman the maia and Denethor;
  the maia saruman were turned wholly into evil through the palantiri. Denethor on the other hand never fell. I find this a great evidence of the mans inherent goodness and strenght (and it makes him that much more tragic). Tolkien underlines this in his letters: Saruman turned evil, while Denethor was driven mad. I do not think there was any madness in Denethor before this. Sacrifice:
  I agree about the difference between Gandalf/Frodo and Denethor, but I think one should consider the reason for why Denethor is like he is. He has fought his doomed mental battle with Sauron for years and years. This we know has driven him to madness and hopelesness. Denethor and Gandalf:
  Their relationship is intriguing. Denethor is the character that Gandalf seems to respect the most in some instances. He seems to respect the steward quite much (judging from his conversations with Pippin). His demeanor when Denethor burns himself is quite telling. You understand that Gandalf feels that a great good has been wasted here. There are hints that he also guesses what Gandalf is. Stewards family:
  We are told that Faramir and Denethor are the most alike to each other. Both are numenorean in nature as well as by blood, whereas Boromir is not in nature. Boromir wants his father to be king, but both Faramir and Denethor says that this cannot be in Gondor. Interestingly you see that Denethors great arrogance leads him to claim before Gandalf that a new king would have to be of the line of Anarion (he echoes the nobility of Gondor 1500 years before him when Arnor claimed the throne) and denies Aragorn because he is of the line of Isildur. The past of Gondor/Numenor haunts us here. It's like hearing the nobility in Osgiliath deny the king with northman blood (can't remember his name) and start the civil war that would cripple Gondor. Faramir enbodies the most noble characteristics of Numenor on the other hand.
  Boromir is a different sort. He is more alike to the men of Rohan than to the men of Gondor/failing Numenor. In one aspect he is alike his father though. He would take the ring and use it. Death:
  There are indeed few parks in Minas Tirith. Tolkien once said that LotR was all about death (an opinion C. Tolkien has echoed). I find death howers on the edges when we meet Gildor, and in Rivendell. It certainly does in Lorien, and death haunts the Grey Havens. Except for the Grey havens it is no other place more apparent than in Minas Tirith though. Death hangs above the city, steeped in the Numenorean fear and fascination of mortality. Boromir
• more later...have to run :) - Frode
• pride: Denethor vs. Saruman - Steve D
  more later...have to run :)

Inferno
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Apr262009,4:20am

Post #44 of 65(29531 views)
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• Book V, Chapter 8: Hobbit resilience - Annael

• I'm with Pindar - Ufthak
  Merry got Black Breathed, whereas Frodo got stabbed, stung, tied up, whipped (someone stop Bull from geting excited here), de-digited (i.e. Gollum bit off his finger), lost control to the Ring in the end, not to mention suffered hunger, thirst, had to live with the fact that he had thought Sam was evil briefly, etc etc. Not to mention that he was hardly the cheerfulest soul to begin with, unlike Merry.
  Anyway, it's not like Sam "lost" Frodo - he wasn't dead or anything, he was just living over the sea and Sam knew this.
• Respect or Sorrow? - gothbog
  You say that same named his own son after Frodo to remember his master. I think he did it out of love and respect and to obey his masterbecause Frodo tells him to name a son after him before he goes to the Grey Havens. Good advice though.
• You have grown wise - Blue Wizard
  I am struck by the parallel between Aragorn's assessment of Merry suffering - that he will not forget his grief, but that it will teach him wisdom, and the later reaction of Saruman to Frodo's mercy - that he has become wise (and cruel). At first blush, it would seem that the sources of their wisdom would be more or less the same - the trials and grief which each has endured. Frodo's trials are so different, both in kind and in degree, that it is perhaps not surpising that he is essentially consumed and transformed by them such that he cannot find respite or peace in Middle Earth. He is, as Gandalf predicted, become like a glass filled with clear light for those who can see it - no longer of Middle Earth. But is their Wisdom any different? There is a very esoteric distiction in Catholic theology between Wisdom as a Virtue and Wisdom as a Gift (of the Holy Spirit). Frankly, it's the sort of think that I have to check in a reference book, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that Tolkien could have recited it off the top of his head. The Virtue of Wisdom is the knowledge of conclusions through their highest causes. Philosophy, particularly metaphysics, is the subject of wisdom, because it concerns the understanding of truth of the natural order according to its highest principles. The Gift of Wisdom on the other hand, is described as detaching one from the world, making one relish and love only the things of heaven. While I'm not all that certain of the nature of the Wisdom which Merry develops in considering his own griefs, I am inclined to view it as encompassing the Virtue of Wisdom, whereas Frodo's situation suggests that he has received the Gift of Wisdom.

• Frodo and Tolkien - Frode
  That's very interesting BW.
  Tolkien seems to have recognised himself in Frodo (or more probably Frodo's final relationship with Middle Earth is inspired by Tolkiens private feelings). I've always thought the autobiographical poem 'the sea bell' (Frodos dreme) from the 'adventures of Tom Bombadil' to be not only Tolkiens best poetry, but also the most informative. Here Tolkien describes the estrangement he felt from the modern world, and the frustration of being 'left out of fairy': 'ragged I walk,
  to myself I talk,
  and still they speak not...men that I meet'
• A clear case of - Stumpy
  the power of positive thinking. Eowyn can recover when she gives up her darkness inside and embraces Faramir. Merry has less trouble recovering because of his gay spirit. Frodo is afflicted by Morgul-knife wounds and possessing the ring, I don't think you can equate that to the others. And I agree on your point about dealing with adversity :o)
• Agreed - pindar
  about Aragorn's great advice. In high school I fell in love with the saying "Pain makes you beautiful" after seeing it scrawled in black ball-point on a friend's blue jeans. I'm no longer so romantic about it, but adversity is really a good, good thing, a great teacher. I think that Frodo's situation differs from Merry's in that fate simply dumped way too much on him. Merry had a touch of the black breath; Frodo had the fate of the world on his shoulders (or on a chain around his neck), and constantly had the forces of evil hammering away at his will, trying to dominate him via the Ring, and it just got worse as his journey went on, not better. As is mentioned several times, he endures beatings that would kill great heroes in no time. In the end, it was just too much.
• Book V, Chapter 8: Ioreth - Annael
  So what is she - plot device? Comic relief? It's rare that we get to meet one of the common folk. Butterbur's the other example. They both talk a lot, whereas the Numenoreans seem a silent lot.
• I don't really think of her as comic relief - Blue Wizard
  I suppose that there are a number of characters and incidents that might serve that function from time to time. But, as Kimi observed, she is but one of many examples of Celeborn's admonition - beginning with Fatty Bolger's nurses' tales of wolves and goblins lurking in the Old Forest. I think, rather, that she is simply an ordinary person. We have seen precious few "real" people since leaving Bree - a few of the men-at-arms of Gondor and Rohan perhaps, but even they are the holders of great honor and renown among their own people, and Bergil, of course. Among the "bad guys", we might include Shagrat and Gorbag, but even they appear to be captains of their posts. But not any others of which I can think. I don't believe that this is in any way a deficiency in the narrative, because the Hobbits themselves are intended to fill the role of "ordinary folk". Everyone else they meet is high above them in stature - in both meanings of the word. But not so, at least in the second sense, for a handful of folk - Butterbur, Bergil and Ioreth. And while the encounters with these people have a touch of light-heartedness amid the various terrors and hardships which the main characters endure, I do not sense that Tolkien necessarily meant to equate rusticity with comedy.
• A little of both, I suspect. She serves.. - Patty
  as I recall to reinforce Aragorn's claim to the kingship by saying the hands of the king are the hands of a healer. And to pave the way for the details about the kingsfoil.
  But, like Lobelia, she is a "female village elder"...a character type that serves as comic relief by her very nature.
• (OT) Patty - Goeth-Helm
  Did you ever get that link to work?

• Sure it does! - Stumpy
  Please click the hat every day.

• Goeth is talking about a different link... - Patty
  and no, I couldn't get it to work. I cut and pasted it to the address bar and still got the This page cannot be displayed page. Thanks, anyway. The hat does work!

• Yes the hat does work... - Goeth-Helm
  I use it once a day, and the "all your base" does not, dang it!
  Sorry:{

• Hunger site network... - Spectrum
  There's more than the Hunger site, y'know. There's also therainforestsite.com, thelandminesite.com, thebreastcancersite.com and thekidsaidssite.com. Don't forget them, they're just as worthy causes.

• Yes. So click on any one of them and they facilitate... - Patty
  your ability to click on the others. When I first posted a link to this site they weren't all linked.
• But....whose hat is it? - pindar
• looks like Uncle Sam's. - Goeth-Helm
• I agree, she is certainly there... - Goeth-Helm
  as a vehicle for Aragorn, as well as lighten the mood of all the death that is taking place.
• I think it's no accident that - Kimi
  we hear talk of "old wives' tales" along the way (notably in Lorien, when Celeborn gets one of his rare chances to say something intelligent and isn't trumped by Galadriel), and in Minas Tirith we actually get to meet an archetypical "old wife". And sure enough, as Celeborn said, "do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know."
• I like Celeborn... - Spectrum
  He's cool. To bad his role's so small. I honestly don't like Galadriel. She is impolite, condescending and patronizing ("matronizing"?).
• I don't think I've ever encountered this... - Patty
  interpretation of C&G before. That's what I love about these discussions--you get to see how many different opinions different people form about the same text.
  Of course, Galadriel had to be assertive by nature to achieve what she's achieved. But I don't agree about her being "matronizing", and I don't think I've read anything about Celeborn that gave me a high opinion of him as "wise." It's wonderful to hear others opinions, thanks, Spectrum.
• He may not be all that wise - Spectrum
  He may not be all that wise, but I find him more sympathetic as a character.
• Comic, no doubt - Stumpy
  and an interesting character after all the serious heroes and villains, despairing maidens, and desperate hobbits.
• Book V, Chapter 8: The herb-master - Annael
  Enter the herb-master, who is far more concerned with impressing everyone with his linguistic skills than the issue at hand. Is Tolkien making fun of himself here?
• Perhaps making fun of those who - Kimi
  believe themselves to have more knowledge than they actually do. Knowing all the names of something without knowing its worth seems a particularly empty form of knowledge. This somehow reminds me of "He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom." The herb-master can name athelas without knowing what it is.
• That sounds like - Stumpy
  the way I always read it. Trying to impress everybody with important sounding words, and not knowing what they mean.
• Ouch... - Spectrum
  I recognize quite a bit of myself there :).
• nah! - Stumpy
  I don't believe it :o)
• Heh, you should've seen... - Spectrum
  You should've seen my latest English essay (or whatever you call it) in school. That was after I'd read LOTR and something of H.P. Lovecraft, and it was basically little more than a vocabulary exercise :). Of course, the essay itself was nice enough, but the whole very much depended on my showing off as a Lovecraft-wannabe. Scored almost top grade with it, too. (12, equivalent of an "A with a half plus".)
• Heh, heh, heh ... - Idril Celebrindal
  Perhaps he's poking fun at some of his colleages!
• Book V, Chapter 8: Aragorn's holistic medicine - Annael
  Aragorn diagnoses Faramir's illness as "weariness, grief for his father's mood, a wound, and over all the Black Breath." Later he says of Eowyn "her malady began far before this day." He is able to recall Faramir to full health, but he can only heal Eowyn's body. Comments?
• This part put me in mind of my Spanish Literature classes... - Patty
  where otherwise strong, young women were always dying of broken hearts.
  Eowyn, as Idril said wanted to be "worthy of a song or two" but she also had this issue about Aragorn. Fortunately Faramir was able, as Idril said to complete the work Aragorn started. And so quickly, too. Was Eowyn perhaps just a little fickle here?
• I don't think so. - Annael
  As Aragorn says to Eomer, in him she loved only a dream, only a shadow. It was infatuation not love.
• I don't think she was fickle - Stumpy
  My memory of it was that it took quite a while to come around to acknowledging her feelings for Faramir. Let's check the text on this one.
• A sickness of the spirit - Stumpy
  despair is not a wound to be healed by a physician.
• Well put - Ufthak
  Faramir has grief for his father's madness and death, but that's recently caused, he's a strong bunny anyway and has Eowyn to take his mind off it.
  Eowyn appears to be a manic depressive, permanently worried about her place at Edoras (wanting to ride to battle etc), the condition of Theoden, the unwanted but unavoidable advances of Wormtongue, and of course the whole thing with Aragorn himself; not only his gentle rejection of her, but also her conviction that he had died on the Paths of the Dead.
  I can assure from my experiences with my friends that just because you have a healthy body it does not mean you have a healthy mind.
• oh, I wouldn't call Eowyn manic-depressive - Annael
  I was married to one, I know from manic-depressive! She never has manic times. I think she's just without hope, as Stumpy said.
• There are limits to his power - Idril Celebrindal
  Aragorn's skill at healing is indeed wholistic: he is apparently able to draw on the patient's own desire to be healed to effect a cure. (The healing powers of the Elfstone probably come into play as well, as Elvish healers seem to take the same approach.) Faramir, Merry, and presumably the other wounded soldiers really do want to recover, giving Aragorn something to work with. Eowyn does not. She desires death, preferably an impressive death that's worthy of a song or two. There's not much Aragorn can do with an attitude like that. He heals what he can, but he cannot address her underlying depression. As is so common in Tolkien's world, love provides the missing factor. Faramir's love for Eowyn helps to bring her out of her depression and completes the job that Aragorn began.
• Yes, I agree that Eowyn's desire to die is - Kimi
  what makes her case different from Faramir's. Aragorn gives her what healing he can, and when she's told that Theoden died in great honour she's freed of the sense of shame that she's been weighed down with for so long. This, and the love she has for Eomer, help draw her back towards life. But I agree that without Faramir's love she would not have gone far on that journey into life.
• Book V, Chapter 8: Aragorn's entrance into Minas Tirith. - Annael
  A "what if" question: What if Denethor had still been alive and sane at the end of the battle? Could Aragorn have entered the city, incognito or otherwise?
• That's a dicey proposition. - Frodo Gardner
  Assuming that other events remained essentially the same, most notably the arrival of the Black Fleet at the opportune moment, I think that Aragorn would still have been welcome to enter the city. If Denethor had remained in control of his senses, he would have welcomed anyone that could bring healing to his son. Also, Denethor may have been a proud man, but I think he would eventually have relinquished the rule of the city to Aragorn - Boromir, too, was proud in the manner of his father, and he eventually came to accept Aragorn as king, albeit under differing circumstances.
• I think Gandalf would have persuaded him - Kimi
  to enter incognito, given the need for Aragorn's gift of healing. It could have been ugly, though; we've had clear enough signals that Denethor would not have accepted Aragorn's claim. And Aragorn would have taken some persuading to enter Minas Tirith even incognito without Denethor's permission. As it is, Imrahil is acting as steward, and he welcomes Aragorn.
• I reckon - Ufthak
  The Tirithian citizens would have realised that Denethor had not done a massive amount to save the city, even if he hadn't been intent on the ultimate family barbeque. Aragorn on the other hand had been rightously smiting orcs right, left and definitely centre. The respect paid to him by Imrahil, Eomer, not to mention Gandalf, and others would count for a lot as well.
  I reckon he'd come in and Denthor would soon have to realise which way the tide was flowing.
• Book V, Chapter 8: The Black Shadow. - Annael
  Merry and Eowyn, and others who have been in contact somehow with the Nazgul, suffer from a coma-like illness. Is this a spell or true illness?
• Or an illness caused by a spell? - Kimi
  The Black Breath and the illness that it causes is reminiscent of despair. It does seem like a sickness of the spirit that causes the body to fall ill in turn. Aragorn calls to their wandering spirits as part of the healing process.
• But I don't think Merry was in despair when.. - Patty
  he succumbed at Bree. Do you think that he still would have become that ill if he had been exposed to the Black Breath longer when they were at the Prancing Pony?
• I phrased it poorly - Kimi
  I only meant the effects of the Black Breath remind me of those of despair. And certainly the emotional/mental/spiritual state of the person afflicted by the Black Breath does seem to influence how badly they're affected by it. Aragorn names "grief for his father's mood" as one of the reasons for Faramir's illness. And of Eowyn he says, "Her malady begins far back before this day." This is of course true of many illnesses.
• True. Hi , Kimi!!! - Patty
• Black Breath - Kingfishr
  I think that asking whether the Black Breath is psychosomatic or physiologic in nature, or whether or not they represent a spell or true illness is like asking whether the Palantiri are magical or really some type of advanced communication devices, or whether the creation of orcs is magical or some kind of genetic engineering, or whether the end of Gandalf's staff has phosphorous in it. The line is supposed to be blurred; what we think is magical is natural in Middle-Earth. That difference and that vagueness is one of the things that makes it so appealing. Galadriel said it best when she told Sam her mirror was what she believed hobbits would call "magic." It was normal and natural enough to her, but she realized that these things were outside the understanding of hobbits (and us), so she appreciated why he and Frodo would be awestruck.
• I think - Spectrum
  I agree with Narya and docrodg, that it is a manifestation of Sauron's evil. And also, remember, that while "magic" is not clearly defined, "sorcery" is. It is the "magical" effects of supernatural evil, like that of Melkor or Sauron.
• 'Tis the "Black Breath" - docrodg
  Well if it is an illness I have no drug in my ambulance for it :) I believe it is a spell/illness that is suffered from the close proximity of the Nazgul. They are very close to Mordor, where their terror and power is at it's max. Simply being near them when they are so mighty 'Sickens the spirit'.
• Whimper! - Narya
  I think it's the icy breath of death - or un-death. It is the wraithworld's essence manifesting itelf in the real world. It is cold and bitter and terrifying, a bit like a Britney Spears record. It is the opposite of (and is detrimental to) the life-force within living beings. Even the wise cannot see all ends.

• Book V, Chapter 8: Gandalf knows already. - Annael
  When Gandalf comes to take Merry to the Houses of Healing, he already knows that Merry has helped to kill the Witch King. How could he know that?
• if I may suggest another possibility... - Goeth-Helm
  The Kings knight's that bore the King and Eowyn may not have "heeded" Merry, but surely they knew that he was there.
  If so, then when they reached the Houses of Healing they recounted everything including Merry in some fashion. Thusly the queestion arises, Where is Merry?
  It could happen. :o)
• He tells us why himself - docrodg
  Earlier, when he comes back as the White he states "...I can see many things that are to come and that have already passed", not an exact quote but near the mark. The blow to the Witch King that killed him and Merry also assisting in the endeavor is now the past, and if Gandalf did not see it coming then he certainly saw it go. He simply saw what had occured while he was busy with a sick Faramir, Rabid Denethor, and Brave Beregond. As I recall he even pauses on the steps of the Houses of the Dead and says something to that effect.
• ah, but why . . . - Annael
  does he imply that he could have saved Theoden, if not for Denethor?
• Because - Ufthak
  If Denethor hadn't been so busy trying to burn himself and Faramir, Gandalf might have wandered out onto the Pelennor Fields and taken out the Big Bad by himself - remember, Gandalf is not a man, except in form - he is a Maia, or an Istari, and therefore "qualified" to be able to kick the Witch King's undead posterior all the way back to the Mountains Of Shadow. You could even argue that the Elven prophecy was centred around Gandalf, although he himself may not have realised it. It was only through his absence that Eowyn was the one who sped to the aid of Theoden rather than him, and it just so happened that neither she nor Merry were men either.
  Yes I know that Tolkein planned it for Eowyn to fulfil the prophecy, I'm just trying to get into the spirit of thigs for once rather than trotting out the "because otherwise there'd be no story" line I'm so fond of.
• But what I'm wondering is - Annael
  if Gandalf foresaw the Witch King's death as docrodg says, did he not also foresee that he would not be there, or that Theoden would die?
• I don't think he foresaw it... - WonderBroad
  ...remember when Gandalf goes up on the walls and gazes out, and then sighs and turns away? He has, with other sight, "seen" what has taken place without being there--but he sees it within a short span of time =after= it has happened, not before. He has seen the fall of Theoden and the destruction of the Witch King. But Gandalf had to make a choice, too. Pippin begs him to save Faramir from Denethor's madness--it was either save Faramir or go down to the battle. I think it was a wise choice, in any event. If Faramir had died, Eowyn would have died, too--probably within days. Aragorn said so himself: If other healing did not come (i.e., her unlooked for, unexpected love for Faramir), she would have died anyway, no matter what Aragorn did to heal her.
• Yes, WB, that's how I read Gandalf's - Kimi
  "seeing", too. The actual quote: "But Gandalf's face was grave and sad, and bidding Beregond and Pippin to take Faramir into the Houses of Healing, he went up on to the walls nearby; and there like a figure carven in white he stood in the new sun and looked out. And he beheld with the sight that had been given to him all that had befallen..." This is definitely seeing the recent past, not a foretelling.
• Book V, Chapter 8, The Houses of Healing: Merry's entrance into Minas Tirith. - Annael
  Merry is the prototype hobbit to me, and the way he enters Minas Tirith seems typical of how a hobbit "hero" would do it - overlooked and under his own steam. I also see some parallels between this journey and Frodo's journey to Rivendell after his encounter with the Nazgul. Comments?
• They both have immense fortitude and endurance - Idril Celebrindal
  Very perceptive question! There are many parallels between Frodo's and Merry's injuries. Both are inflicted by the Witch King. Both wounds are more of the spirit than the flesh. Both Frodo and Merry prove to be a lot tougher than anyone would have expected. They are certainly tougher than one of the "Big People" would have been in the equivalent situation. Frodo withstood the spinter of the Morgul knife for 15 days, where an ordinary man would have succumbed within just a few days. Merry manages to stagger into Minas Tirith under his own steam after recieving a wound similar to the one that put Eowyn completely out of action. And this wasn't a hike across peaceful farmland, but a march under battlefield conditions. Merry had to avoid fires, Orc earthworks, wrecked seige engines, stray Orcs and Southrons, and the heaps of the dead and wounded. It is amazing that he made it off the battlefield alive. The biggest difference between the two cases is the role of Aragorn. Aragorn was only able to give limited relief to Frodo, even with the help of fresh athelas gathered in the wild. But after the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, having come into his power as healer-king, he is able to cure Merry.
• That does seem kind of weird - Ufthak
  The idea that after he became king (actually, he wasn't even technically king) that he was way better at healing than he was previously. On the other hand, with no Elrond around to save him I suppose poor old Merry needed a Deus Ex Machina, such as Aragorn's suddenly becoming much better at healing, in order to save his poor Hobbit life. We can't have a dead Hobbit now, can we, Precioussss...?
• There are similarities, - Frodo Gardner
  but do you not think it significant that Frodo's wound, while spiritual in nature, also involved a piercing of his flesh and the infiltration of his body by a physical piece of an evil blade, whereas Eowyn and Merry suffered mainly from spiritual ill effects? Also, I wonder if Aragorn didn't learn a thing or two to increase his healing abilities while Elrond tended to Frodo? Just asking....
• More than learning a thing or two - Blue Wizard
  Aragorn has acquired something, the Elfstone. We've discussed it before, and frankly it's one of those things the significance of which is not really explained at all in the text itself. As far as the four corners of LOTR is concerned, "Elfstone" is one of the names fortold for Aragorn; he gets it from Galadriel, and thus the prophesy is fulfilled and he's one more step along the way to being recognized as the rightful King. That there is a further connection between the Elfstone prophesy and the "hands of the King are the hands of a healer" prophesy is never discussed. Of course, from the other available source material, we find out that the Elfstone has powerful curative properties and that Aragorn's greatly enhanced healing abilities may well be in large measure due to his now possessing the magical Elfstone.
• Very careless of me to leave the Elfstone out of the discussion. - Frodo Gardner
  Great point, Blue. I think I tend to minimize the significance of the Elfstone because its healing properties are not discussed in LOTR. We have to go to UT to get a fuller treatment and, while it seems that Tolkien did not finalize all the details about the origin and actual properties of Aragorn's stone, it's certain that Elessar was imbued with some degree of healing abilities. Frankly, I wasn't thinking about that when I wrote about Aragorn picking up more knowledge from Elrond. Aragorn may have learned something more in Rivendell, but you are correct to point out that the most significant factor is his acquiring Elessar at the end of the stay in Lothlorien. *slaps himself on the head - lightly, of course* Duh! Activate memory, get mind in gear, smarten up, turn on the lights, wake up and fly right, shake the rocks out of that head,......
• I've always held ... - Idril Celebrindal
  ... that Aragorn came truly into his inheritance as king when he summoned the dead to the Stone of Erech, well before he was formally crowned. It's there that he spiritually took on the role as the heir to Isildur and Elendil in commanding the Oathbreakers to cleanse the land of the forces of Sauron. Assuming this role is what enabled him to use his inner power and the power of the Elfstone (as you pointed out) to heal Merry and the other victims of the Black Breath.
• Yes, that is where - Blue Wizard
  he unfurls his banner, for the first time openly proclaiming himself in a public way as the rightful King of Gondor and demanding the fealty of those who had given their oath to his ancestor.
• Well... - Ufthak
  Eowyn got her arm broken, which can't have been pleasant. As for Aragorn, I thought that he and Elrond's sons went off to scout out the land almost as soon as he got ot Rivendell? Therefore not watching Elrong at work. I could be wrong, I don't have the book with me.
• He hung around Rivendell those first few days after the events at Bruinen - Frodo Gardner
  so it is plausible to think that he may have learned even more of the healing craft from Elrond, especially in regard to Nazgul-inflicted wounds. It is not a necessary conclusion to draw, merely a possibility - to me, a likelihood, but I won't press the point too strongly, since it is only an opinion.
• A difference... - WonderBroad
  Frodo actually had part of the blade in his body, and it was working its way toward his heart. Aragorn could not have removed that out in the wild. It seems to me that Elrond had to perform some sort of "surgery" to remove it, since it was working its way inward. Merry's injuries were bad enough, but they did not have this extra component that Frodo's had. And, in Merry's case, he was treated in Minas Tirith's equivalent of a "hospital" within hours of being hurt. That was not the case with Frodo, who had to struggle with it for days and days. Still, this is not to belittle what happened to Merry. Didn't Gandalf say, to the effect, that the very shock of striking the Witch King could have killed Eowyn and Merry? I think he did say something like that (can't check book at the moment).
• There's an issue for the movies - Annael

Inferno
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Apr262009,4:21am

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• Book V, Chapter 9. Summary. - Kimi

• Yes Excellent work Kimi. - Narya
• Great questions Kimi. - Annael
• Great job Kimi - Steve D
• Terrific job this week! - Blue Wizard
  I think that the idea of loading all the questions toward the beginning of the week has turned out well, and stimulates longer and better discussions.
• Book V, Chapter 9. Part 12: Númenóreans, Half-Elven, and a simple man of Rohan - Kimi
  Gandalf sums up their situation and suggests the outrageous "assault" on Mordor. Aragorn says that he will not waver now, "where hope and despair are akin." Elrohir says that Gandalf's counsel matches Elrond's, and they will not turn back. Imrahil states that he holds Aragorn to be his liege-lord, and Aragorn's wish is his command, though at the same time he takes thought for the safety of those left behind. And Éomer makes an endearingly simple speech: "As for myself… I have little knowledge of these deep matters; but I need it not. This I know, and it is enough, that as my friend Aragorn succoured me and my people, so I will aid him when he calls. I will go." What do their various responses tell us about these leaders?
• What a great question, Kimi. - Annael
  Nothing to add to what's been said, except that it is a testament to Tolkien's craft that each of these characters comes through as an distinct individual, even the ones who only figure briefly in the story.
• Man this book is full of cool characters... - vedhed
  These answers tell me that we are dealing with leaders who have heavy burdens on them and the dark fear that they will not see another day. Yet they calmly come to the realization that this is what they must do, and though it may seem futile, this is their last best chance. I wonder if Tolkien ever read Confucius (sp) who said take care when making important decisions, but once you've made them plunge wholeheartedly and fearlessly into your plan of attack. They didn't want it to come to this, but now that it had they were ready to see it through. I admire these fictional leaders, for their bravery and their refusal to let go of hope. These are some of my favorite chapters!
• Eomer's statement is sublime. - Steve D

• you guys are amazing! - qira thunderbrand
  you guys are amazing...i'm so glad to have the chance to read this stuff! i'll be all "caught up" in no time. thanks for your work and attention! qira
• This is my last topic for this chapter - Kimi
• Thanks for leading a great discussion! - Idril Celebrindal
• Thank you Kimi, excellent job. - Frode
• Book V, Chapter 9. Part 11: Sacrifice - Kimi
  Sacrifice is a recurrent theme in LOTR. In "The Pyre of Denethor" we see a perversion of sacrifice, when Denethor takes his own life in pride and despair. But in this chapter we see the leaders of the armies calmly and methodically planning to make themselves bait for Sauron, to provide what Gandalf calls the Ring-bearer's only chance, "frail though it be." What's your reaction to this calm heroism?
• Question is, did Aragorn intend this all along? - Annael
  As Gandalf said, Aragorn set this chain of events in motion back at Helm's Deep. Did he have a foresight about this? Or did he just now realize, as they all did, that to stop now would signal to Sauron that maybe attack was coming from an unexpected quarter, and put him on his guard? I don't see this as a decision so much as an acknowledgment.
• Maybe not all of them realised... - Mr Kimi
  The top ones, of course, knew exactly what they were doing and why. I'm not sure that the rank and file realised the whole plan. They possibly thought that since they had thrashed Sauron's armies at Minas Tirith is was time to go and clean him out. The details of the ring were probably not widely understood, even if they were published. When they sent our guys to Gallipoli they probably didn't tell them they were a distraction from the main event. I'm not saying this was wrong of Gandalf, Aragorn and the rest. They were doing the best they could to save everyone. And the ones that knew were damn brave. I think this is Aragorn's fourth suicide mission in the book. Notwithstanding they did sent the 'faint of heart' to Cair Andros to clean out the orcs there because the main mission was too scary for some. This does suggest that everyone knew what was happening, contradicting what I said above.
• I don't think it contradicts your theory. - Alnilam
  Even if it was just a diversion tactic, it was still a very dangerous mission, and everybody either knew that very well, or they were in fear of actually attacking Sauron for a change. That was enough to discourage the 'faint of heart' I think. If they had really known what their leaders thought of the nature of the mission, there'd have been quite a few more people going to Cair Andros though. That was a very good point, Mr. Kimi.

• I agree... - vedhed
  I don't think Aragorn intended any of his missions to be suicide missions, just that when he came to realize what had to be done it happened that it looked impossible. He was brave though and willing to give his life for the cause. He had to know of the prophecy of his return, but that wouldn't have taken all his fear. I mean, I'm sure there are just as many prophecies that don't come true as there are that do. WiKi's prophecy didn't help him that much when Eowyn and Merry waxed him. I think he and the rest of the guys were just doing the job that needed to be done. Very brave, very admirable. I think Ved might have been packing off to Andros.
• Book V, Chapter 9. Part 10: The Nazgûl - Kimi
  "His Nazgûl are still abroad. They passed over this field ere the sunrise, though few of the weary and sleeping were aware of them." It strikes me as odd that few people were aware of Nazgûl flying over, given the strength of reaction that the Nazgûl usually arouse, even when they fly too high to be seen. Is it just that the armies are deeply weary?
• I got the impression that it may have had to do with distance... - vedhed
  Something about the wording there made it seem like the Nazgul didn't want to be detected and so stayed out of the range where the weary or the unskilled might detect them. I don't know if it was ever mentioned that they could willingly increase or decrease the dread they put into those around them, but I do remember their strenght increased nearer to Barad-Dur.
• I think that the Nazgul can vary the amount of terror they project - Ron Austin
  Since Magic in Tolkien's World is mostly dependent on the will of the user I think the terror spell is under the Nazgul's control as to how strong the effect is.
• yeah. the people in the shire weren't falling to the floor in fear. - vedhed
  There must have been a thermostat of somekind that they could turn up and down.
• Power of the Nazgul - Idril Celebrindal
  The general weariness of the army is one of the reasons why nobody seems to react to the Nazgul. (Although I suspect that a number of sleepers subsequently had nightmares!) But there are other reaons why the Nazgul would want to keep a low profile after the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. They are apparently doing some aerial reconnaisance to estimate the damage done to Minas Tirith and the remaining strength of its armies, and do not want to attract unwanted attention. They may even be afraid of attack -- remember Legolas shooting the Nazgul out of the skies? The death of the Witch King may also one of the reasons why the Nazgul aren't acting more aggressively against the armies of the West. The loss of his leadership seems to have had a deterring effect on the other Nazgul. They don't play a very active role in the story until Sauron summons them back to Orodruin when Frodo puts on the Ring.
• makes sense to me, IC - Steve D
• Book V, Chapter 9. Part 9: The Palantir - Kimi
  "I deemed that… the Stone had come to me for just such a purpose," Aragorn says of his use of the palantir. It does seem an odd chance that Wormtongue should have seized on the palantir as an object to throw out of Orthanc. Is this an example of divine (or angelic) intervention?
• I don't think so - Blue Wizard
  Rather, is seems to me part of one of the recurring themes in the books: the designs and plots of the evil turning against themselves and working to further the cause of the good. We see it again and again, in large and small ways throughout this mythology, from Melkor's attempt to introduce a theme of his own imagining into the Ainulindale only enhancing the music; to Sauron, by making the One Ring, creating the means of his destruction; through Saruman's treason advancing the cause of the Fellowship; to Gollum's final theft of the Ring and falling into the Cracks of Doom, thus accomplishing what Frodo had failed to do; to something as mundane as the bricks of the hated new mill in the Shire being used to build better homes for Hobbits Sharkey dispossessed. Wormtongue intends to kill - who exactly we will never know for certain - an evil intent regardless of its object, and not only fails, but inadvertently provides Aragorn with the means of challenging Sauron, which redoubted to the ultimate good. This is neither predestination, nor divine intervention in my view. It is, rather, borne of a view that, though evil greviously mars the world, it cannot ultimately triumph, and it sews the seeds of its own destruction.
• Was he trying to kill someone with that? - vedhed
  I never got that impression. I always thought he threw it out because he had failed and feared Sauron calling on him if the Palantir were still in Orthanc. I guess I'll have to read that again.
• I'm quite certain of it - Blue Wizard
  The only question being who exactly the stone was aimed at. It's an interesting thought, that Wormtongue would be trying to throw away the Palantir to prevent Sauron from contacting Saruman after their failures, but that doesn't strike me as a likely motivation. I think that Saruman would have kept the Palantir secret even from Wormtongue, and that he had no idea what it was he was throwing.

• I'm with Blue Wizard - Daddy Twofoot
  My impression was always that, yes, Grima was simply insanely angry at that moment, grabbed the closest, heaviest object he could find, and heaved it. I also always felt sure he aimed it at Gandalf. Remember Gandalf had recently humiliated him, caused him to lose his place in Theoden's heart, and THAT probably pissed off Saruman. Iluvatar knows what Saruman did to him to make him pay for the act. I remember when I first read it that I was surprised Grima showed up at Hobbiton. I had figured by then that Saruman must have killed him for the loss of the palantir. My $0.02.

• I think that Gandalf said that the only reason the wormtongue missed - Morwen
  was because he couldn't decide who he was most angry with, Gandalf or Theoden. He aimed at both of them and therefore didnt't hit anybody

• Wasn't that Gandalf or Saruman? Or was it Theoden or Saruman? Or all three? I'm confused. - Spectrum

• Actually, I do think it was Gandalf or Saruman - Morwen
  My memory was misguided. Thanks.
• I guess I didn't realize the significance of this - vedhed
  when I read the books. Its been a while now and I was so into it I just shot through some chapters. In my mind I'd always thought it was Saruman who threw it. Think I'll give them a re-read around Novemberish to be ready for the flick.
• I'm not a fan of predestination or divine intervention - Narya
  Because, if Eru (or whoever) was directing things from above, then, somehow, this diminishes the accomplishments of the Fellowship. Given the choice, I prefer to believe in Lady Luck rather than the Hand of Fate. Even the wise cannot see all ends.

• I don't think it diminishes their accomplishments - Kimi
  The way I read it is that Frodo does his absolute best, spending his whole self on attempting the quest. But the task is beyond him; more than he is capable of. So Eru sanctifies his efforts by intervening just enough to make the task succeed. Had Frodo given less than his all, the quest would have failed.
• Old Chinese proverb say - Narya
  "It easier to climb to top of mountain if walk on path built for you." Even the wise cannot see all ends.

• In this case, the road was built for Sauron - Kimi
  Which is about as inscrutable as your remark :-)
• There's another example - Blue Wizard
  of evil designs doing unintended good. Sauron constructs a great causeway and road to Sammath Naur, using the labor, and undoubtedly sacrificing the lives, of countless slaves to build it and keep it open amid the eruptions of Orodruin. But for that road being there, Sam and Frodo would never have been able to make their way up the mountain side.
• no man an island? - pindar
  I disagree about luck diminishing accomplishments any less than fate. The bottom line is: the fellowship could not have been successful without these fated/lucky events. So no matter whether providence or blind chance is dealing them out, the fellowship is equally dependent.
• Yeah, but fate implies somebody else did the work for them - Narya
  Whereas luck is just, well, luck. It can go either way and, as any good footbal manager will confirm, is part and parcel of the game. If you say the fellowship were fated to succeed, then you give the credit to Eru (or whoever). But if they were lucky, then the individuals themselves get the credit. They made decisions themselves, perhps taking account of the odds, and won. Must say, I think that Tolkien did imply fate though. It's just that I'm not a believer in it. Even the wise cannot see all ends.

• yes, but so does chance - pindar
  I think JRRT implied fate too. But I still disagree that dependence on fate is any more degrading than dependence on luck. Whether the force governing events is conscious or unconscious, those events are still beyond human control, and it still takes wit to make the most out of them. Nudges of good luck or good fate could easily be bungled. It's like a joke I heard once: A flood hits a town, and one man, before he knows it, finds his house engulfed. He goes up to the roof and sees water sweeping all around, rising every minute. Being very religious, he prays to god to save him. A while later, some neighbors come by in a boat and offer to pick him up, since they have just enough room for him. He tells them, "No, the lord will provide." A while later, a helicopter ambulance comes over his house and lets down a ladder. He refuses again: "No, the lord will provide." Eventually the water level rises too high, and he drowns. In heaven, he's a bit shaken & confused, and asks the big guy, "So why didn't you help me out down there?" God answers, "Come on, I sent you a boat and a helicopter! What more do you want?" That's an exaggeration, of course, but the fellowship could just as easily have taken wrong turns despite divine assistance. Part of their success wasn't up to them, no matter whether it was Eru or luck, and the rest they can take credit for.
• Ah but there's an important difference - Narya
  And it's about emphasis With an individual is lucky, the emphasis, or onus, is upon that individual. The luck applies itself to the circumstances created by that individual. If an individual is fated to achieve something, then the onus is very much away from the individual. The outcome is guaranteed, the individual is just a passenger. True, from the perspective of hindsight, the outcome may have been the same. But from a prior perspective the outcome is far from certain if there is no hand of fate. Even the wise cannot see all ends.

• He was meant to have it - Idril Celebrindal
  Throughout both LOTR and The Hobbit, key artifacts fall into people's posession in time to be used against evil. Bilbo finds Sting in the troll's hoard and the Ring in the darkness of the Orc mines, Merry acquires one of the few knives that would pierce the undead flesh of the Witch King, Aragorn gets the palantir when Wormtongue tosses it out the window ... whether it's blind fate or the subtle hand of Eru, something is clearly going on.
• If so,then the deck was stacked against Sauron - Temujin
  And, if the deck was stacked against him, it just wasn't fair! I call a do-over!
• Could be, I guess... - Pteppic
  It's not like there hasn't been a divine intervention before (for instance, when Bilbo finds the Ring - which Gandalf says he was MEANT to do), so I don't see why it couldn't. It's certainly not any less probable than finding a small golden ring on the floor of a dark cave hundreds of feet under ground. I'd say yes.
• the entire quest seems to be a divine intervention... - leo
  ..looking at the ammount of luck the fellowship had over the chapters, it all comes down to a few simple questions; what if Wormtongue hadn't thrown the Palantir? well then Pippin would have never looked into it and thus Sauron would never have made his moves that fast, which would have been fatal for the good guys. it's a 'what if'' question, and I find those hard to answer.. what if Gandalf wouldn't have fallen in Moria? What if Boromir hadn't tried to seize the Ring? What if Bilbo wouldn't have put his hand on the Ring in the Hobbit? what if, what if, what if... in this event however it turned out good for the fellowship, like it did in most events, so I guess you could call it a divine intervention...
• Yes, one could see it that way - Annael
  and I kind of like to. The things that belong to Aragorn are now accruing to him. But apart from that, it makes sense that Wormtongue threw the palantir out of all the objects in Orthanc. It would be a good weapon if your aim was to smash someone's head: heavy, but not too big to lift and throw. Also, it reveals a double kind of malice towards Saruman, because Wormtongue no doubt also knew that Saruman would be in big trouble if he didn't report in to Sauron. So if he killed Saruman with it, fine; if he didn't, still fine. I'd like to have been a fly on the wall for the conversation they had after THAT little incident!
• Book V, Chapter 9. Part 8: Denethor's strategy - Kimi
  One for the strategy buffs here. "'Then you would have us retreat to Minas Tirith, or Dol Amroth, or to Dunharrow, and there sit like children on sand-castles when the tide is flowing?' said Imrahil. 'That would be no new counsel,' said Gandalf. 'Have you not done this and little more in all the days of Denethor?'" And later: "'He [Sauron] is not yet sure,' said Gandalf, 'and he has not built up his power by waiting until his enemies are secure, as we have done.'" It sounds to me as if Gandalf is critical of Denethor's strategy (or lack of). How do you think Denethor might have arranged things better?
• Denethor's failure... - Steve D
  I think was not trying to make a closer relationship with the other people fighting against Sauron, most of all the Elves. He tried to go it alone.
• Perhaps that was the work of the Enemy - Morwen
  At least in part, Sauron using the Palantir to convince Denethor that victory was hopeless and that the other enemies of Sauron, including the Elves, desired only to remove Denethor from power and replace him with Aragorn. Thus,isolated from possible allies, convinced by the visions Sauron shows him through the Seeing Stone that his people and his country are doomed and that he can trust no one, Denethor falls more and more deeply into despair until he is driven to suicide and the attempted murder of his only surviving son.
• 'In nothing is the power of the enemy seen so claerly as in the division among those who oppose him' or close enough anyway :) - Frode
• That is the exact quote I was trying to remember. Thank you! - Morwen
• all through the Sil that's a theme. - vedhed
  The bad guys whisper in the good guy's ears long before they are ready to smite them with Grond.
• Then that is a failiure he shares with many. - Frode
  Notably: Cirdan, Theoden, Galadriel and Elrond. No race was as seclusive as the elves in the late third age.
• true - Steve D
• Denethor hoped to use the Ring against Sauron - Idril Celebrindal
  He knew that he couldn't win through might of arms. His largely defensive war was intended to delay Sauron as long as possible and gain time for Boromir to find and acquire Isildur's Bane, the One Ring. Denethor hoped that Boromir would bring the Ring to him -- hence his anger at Faramir for allowing Frodo to continue taking the Ring to Mordor and his comments about Boromir being his son and not a wizard's pupil. Denethor apparently believed that Boromir's love and loyalty towards his father would prove stronger than the Ring's power to corrupt, and that Boromir would have willingly turned the Ring over to his father for use against the Dark Lord.
• The scales have dropped from my eyes - Kimi
  Do you know, I don't think I've ever thought in detail about exactly what Denethor hoped to gain from sending Boromir to Imladris? I suppose I'd vaguely thought that he thought Gondor would get good counsel there, but given Denethor's pride that doesn't fit well. Do you think Denethor knew what Isildur's Bane was? In "The Council of Elrond" Gandalf says he thinks that only he and Saruman have read the scroll telling of Isildur and the Ring. How much of the journey of the Fellowship might Denethor have seen in his palantir, I wonder?
• Perhaps at that time Denethor had not lost all his wisdom to pride and despair - Morwen
  Maybe he knew just enough about Isuldur's Bane to realize he needed to know more of it, even at the cost to his pride of asking for help from the Elves. I wonder if even at that time he had thoughts of taking Isuldur's Bane for himself, especially if he knew or suspected that it was the One Ring.
• Difficult - Ufthak
  I actually think Gandalf is a little unfair here. Denethor couldn't really do anything else - an assualt on the Black Land would be suicidal, even with a greater amount of troops than they took anyway (as there would have been no casualties as yet from the Battle of the Pellenor Fields). Also, once they had been defeated, what would stop Sauron from pouring forth and invading Middle Earth? With his strongest foes vanquished, as they surely would be, there would be few capable of stopping him - Dale, Erebor and Lothlorien may resist for a while, but that would be it. What Denethor did was sit and hope that something would come along to weaken the Dark Lord. Instead of foolishly attacking an unassailable fortress he just hoped things would get beter. As it was (although he knew noting of this) this kept Suaron at bay long enough for the Ring to be brought into a position where the distraction of the Dark Lord's strength could serve a useful purpose - drawing his attention away from the Ringbearer. Ufthak has spoken.
• I think you're right - Spectrum
  But I don't think Denethor was aware of it, I mean, with the Palantir and all. Sauron might have made a mistake here in scaring Denethor. Otherwise he might have recklessly attempted to assail Mordor.
• Book V, Chapter 9. Part 7: "A great evil of this world will be removed" - Kimi
  "If it [the Ring] is destroyed, then he will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he himself will be maimed forever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape." Gandalf speaks with certainty and in some detail about the downfall of Sauron should the Ring be destroyed. He seems to know more about it than Sauron himself, who assumed the Ring had been destroyed at the time of the Last Alliance. Where might this knowledge come from? My own feeling is that it was part of the new knowledge Gandalf was given before being sent back from death.
• Gandalf always seems to be right... - Steve D
  except for the one time when he was tricked by Saruman.
• Not quite - Kimi
  He's wiser after he returns as Gandalf the White. He admits to having made a mistake in "The Shadow of the Past", when he refers to having lost Gollum's trail: "And then I made a great mistake. Yes, Frodo, and not the first; though I fear it may prove the worst. I let the matter be. I let him go; for I had much else to think of at that time, and I still trusted the lore of Saruman."
• Saruman is involved here too. - Steve D
  Maybe Gandalf in his goodness had a blind spot to the idea that his leader could go bad.
• Since the whole point - Stumpy
  of sending Frodo to Mordor is to destroy the ring, I always assumed that Gandalf and the elves knew that it would cripple Sauron. This may just be Tolkien explaining more fully to the reader what the destruction of the One Ring would mean to Sauron and the future denizens of Middle Earth.
• Exactly what I thought! - Pteppic
  That idea just popped into my head when I read the quoted passage. Which means that it must be right! ;oP Anyway, all my points have been made by leo already, so I'll stop now.
• my thoughts too... - leo
  I think it is something that he learned while he thought he had forgotten it. I can't recall Gandalf 'predicting' the way of Sauron's downfall like this before, so he must have gained this knowledge somewhere on the road, and after his death would be the most logical option. I wonder if Sauron knows this, and I don't think Sauron assumed it had been destroyed during the last alliance, he knew the Ring was still out there, otherwise he wouldn't have sent the nazgul for it. I find it interesting to know that Maia can be destroyed that easily, remember how Saruman 'died', perhaps part of the powers of Maia spirits would shrink if they would turn to evil....
• The Valar and Maiar diminish when they turn to evil - Idril Celebrindal
  The idea that evil diminishes the evildoer is a common theme throughout Tolkien's work. And it's shown in the cases of Morgoth, Sauron and Saruman. The power of all three of these beings was greatest in the beginning, before they turned to evil. However, according to Morgoth's Ring, Morgoth allowed much of his power to pass into the physical world in an effort to corrupt it. Nothing escaped his contamination: Arda itself became Morgoth's Ring. However, this evil act diminished the power he himself could draw upon. His turning to evil also spiritually diminished him. In the end, he was overcome in the War of Wrath. Although they could not destroy him because his essence was distributed throughout Arda, they did the next best thing: they imprisoned him in the Void. Sauron took a page out of his old master's playbook when he forged the One Ring, but he avoided dispersing his power and instead concentrated it in a single artifact that he thought he could easily defend. Sauron created the Ring to act as a focus for concentrating his power and as a device for controlling the other elven rings. He poured a great deal of his natural strength into the Ring. As Sauron's evildoing increased, his power to assume different forms diminished. Initially, he could freely change shape; the Silmarillion describes several examples of this. During the Second Age, he was able to appear as Annatar, the handsome Lord of Gifts, to the Noldor of Eregion. But after the destruction of Numenor he forever lost the power to appear in a fair shape. His evil deeds contributed to this loss of ability. When the Ring was destroyed, Sauron's power went with it and he was reduced to a harmless spectre. Saruman followed in Morgoth's footsteps in some ways. Although the text doesn't explicitly state it, I believe that Saruman's catastrophic loss at Helm's Deep destroyed much of his innate power. He must have allowed his power to pass into his armies in the hope of strengthening them, and when they were destroyed he was catastrophically weakened. But his refusal of the chance of redemption offered by Gandalf and his indulgence in petty revenge by ravaging the Shire were what truly diminished him. When Saruman's physical body was killed, he no longer had the power to recover. Like Sauron, he became a powerless spirit of malice.
• Book V, Chapter 9. Part 6: The Paths of the Dead - Kimi
  The journey through the Paths of the Dead, the meeting with the oath-breakers and all the events till the coming of the Fleet are told after the event, with Legolas, Gimli and the two young hobbits comparatively safe and sound as they hear this part of the story. How successful does this after-the-event storytelling seem to you? Is much of the impact of these events lost by our hearing of them in this way?
• Worked for Me - Daddy Twofoot
  I can remember the first time I read the books, I could not get out of my mind what happened after Aragorn left. Always I was wondering, what's happening to him. Expecting to "hear" any moment...then the big surprise when he returns. It seems to me to be Tolkien's storytelling genius at work, since the others involved at Minas Tirith must have been thinking the same the same thing...where's Aragorn? How has he fared? When will he return? It's a subtle way of putting you into the same state of distraction as the major characters. It is for this reason that I hope PJ plays it the same way. (He must, I guess, elsewise the surprise of Aragorn's return is shot to hell.)
• I love this part. - Annael
  I know, I say that all the time. It works for me, given the hobbit-centric POV of the book. However, I hope the movie will show us the ride and the battle at the ships in real time. They could show the lack of wind and everyone's fear that they won't get there in time, and cut back to Minas Tirith and leave us wondering too. I always felt Tolkien skimped on the part where they actually take the ships. I'm hoping the movie shows this in a bit more detail. I'm looking forward to seeing the ride through the Paths, the Stone of Erech, and so on very much.
• Same here ... - Idril Celebrindal
  I'm also looking forward to seeing the other parts of the story that a Hobbit-centric POV caused Tolkien to recount as a second-hand story, such as the fight between Gandalf and Saruman. Not to mention the entire Aragorn-Arwen relationship. :-)
• It seems right... - Steve D
  to tell it in this way. Maybe leave it a little mysterious.
• Yeah - Ufthak
• Gimil tells a good story - Mr Kimi
  It is easy to forget that we are hearing this second hand. Gimil obviously taught JRRT to tell stories! It has to be second hand, of course, or we would lose the Hobbit-centric feature of the story. Until the Hobbits know something we don't get to hear it. There weren't enough Hobbits to send on that leg of the journey and anyway, maybe only Frodo would have had the guts to go through with it.
• I dunno, I think if I had to choose... - leo
  I'd rather have tolkien write the story in one or two chapters, it'd be cool reading about these events and their entore journey, detailed description of landscapes and such... also, I'd love to read more about the Rangers of the North and the sons of Elrond..
• Gimli should tell this story - Morwen
  The journey through the Paths of the Dead was the point in the Quest where Gimli faced his own fears and weakness. Until that point he considered himself hardier and more fearless than any man, but found he held to the road "only by the will of Aragorn". The summoning of the Dead was a turning point in the War, but it was also a personal turning point for Gimli.
• Book V, Chapter 9. Part 5: "The Sea!" - Kimi
  "Alas! I have not yet beheld it. But deep in the hearts of all my kindred lies the sea-longing, which it is perilous to stir. Alas! for the gulls. No peace shall I have again under beech or under elm." In Appendix F we are told, "In the hearts of the Exiles the yearning for the Sea was an unquiet never to be stilled; in the hearts of the Grey-elves it slumbered, but once awakened it could not be appeased." Legolas is of Sindarin (Grey-elven) origin. Why do you think the Grey Elves might be susceptible to the sea-longing? Is it perhaps because they travelled all the way to the shores of Middle-earth only to stop there and never reach Valinor?
• They like to ride in swan-boats ;o) - Stumpy
  It's the call of the Undying Lands, no doubt.
• Well, you know - Ufthak
  It's not a longing for the sea so much as a longing for what lies over it - Valinor and the holy glowing land of all goodness etc. The grey-elves were probably fine until they remembered that there was a "better" land over the seas, after whcih they were hooked.
• We can't go on meeting klike this -:) - Mr Kimi
• Book V, Chapter 9. Part 4: "'It is ever so with the things that Men begin: - Kimi
  There is a frost in Spring, or a blight in Summer, and they fail of their promise.' [said Gimli] 'Yet seldom do they fail of their seed,' said Legolas. 'And that will lie in the dust and rot to spring up again in times and places unlooked-for. The deeds of Men will outlast us, Gimli.' 'And yet come to naught in the end but might-have-beens, I guess,' said the Dwarf. 'To that the Elves know not the answer,' said Legolas." We are given a view here of mankind seen from the point of view of an elf and a dwarf. They seem to see the history of mankind as one of slow decline, and yet, to the Elf at least, it seems this younger race will eventually inherit the earth. If it's appropriate to see Gimli and Legolas as representatives of their respective races, what does this exchange tell us about the way Elves and Dwarves view Men?
• ramblings - Stumpy
  The dwarven view appears to be that humans are not industrious enough, and easily distracted. Typical dwarvish attitude! They can barely get their noses out of the mines long enough to procreate :o) The elvish attitude is interesting. Legolas says nothing about humanity's works, or the value of those works. There's definitely an underlying preoccupation with the differences between the races concerning mortality and their future dominance after the end of the age.
• Elves have seen more... - Mr Kimi
  Legolas has the wisdom of a longer life, a longer history and culture. Like most of the wise he knows there is much he does not know. What he seems to be saying is that men (&women!) breed like rabbits so they'll be around a while while the Elves and Dwarves have never been so resilient. As a species we have of course outperformed the other races but not, in Legolas and Gimil's opinion, 'cos we're better, just more prolific.
• Book V, Chapter 9. Part 3: "Imrahil is a Númenórean name" - Kimi
  This is a short note tucked away in Appendix E of LOTR. Languages are important in LOTR, written as it was by a philologist; indeed Tolkien described his work as "largely an essay in 'linguistic aesthetic'" in a letter of 1955. So I think that there's significance in the fact that the rulers of Dol Amroth use Númenórean names when the other nobility of Gondor and Arnor use Elvish names. What might this significance be? Does Imrahil represent the Númenóreans, even more so than Aragorn does?
• Numenoreans in LotR - Frode
  The numenorean nobility in LotR seems to represent different aspects of Numenor: Denethor demonstrates the arrogance and pride that often dominated the Numenorean court (and the gondorean). While denying Boromirs wish that the stewards should be kings as folly, Denethor does echo the nobility of Gondor when Arnor once claimed the gondorean throne: when he debates Aragorn with Gandalf, Denethor says that he will not suffer a king in Gondor that is of the line of Isildur, only one from Anarions line. Faramir and Imrahil seem to represent numenorean wisdom. Aragorn is THE dunadan we are told. THE numenorean. It is he that echoes Elendils words upon setting foot on the shores of middle earth, and it is he that we see in that vision: that line of men going back to the first one coming out of the sea. Tall men with bright swords, and "last came one with a star upon his brow". I think nothing says Numenor as much as Aragorn.
• I think Aragorn... - Steve D
  is beyond being just a member of one group.
• Book V, Chapter 9. Part 2: Prince Imrahil - Kimi
  Legolas recognises the distant elven-blood in Imrahil, and greets him thus: "It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water." The details of Imrahil's Elvish ancestry are given in Unfinished Tales, "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn": "In the tradition of his house Angelimar was the twentieth in unbroken descent from Galador, first Lord of Dol Amroth (c.Third Age 2004-2129). According to the same traditions Galador was the son of Imrazôr the Númenórean, who dwelt in Belfalas, and the Elven-lady Mithrellas. She was one of the companions of Nimrodel, among many of the Elves that fled to the coast about the year 1980 of the Third Age, when evil arose in Moria; and Nimrodel and her maidens strayed in the wooded hills, and were lost. But in this tale it is said that Imrazôr harboured Mithrellas, and took her to wife. But when she had borne him a son, Galador, and a daughter, Gilmith, she slipped away by night and he saw her no more. But though Mithrellas was of the lesser Silvan race (and not of the High Elves or the Grey) it was ever held that the house and kin of the Lords of Dol Amroth was noble by blood as they were fair in face and mind." I find this story quite fascinating. There are many instances in world mythology of the "fairy" or nymph who is taken as wife by a human man, bears her husband children then disappears. Melusine, the fairy married by Raymond de Lusignan, is one of the better-known of these fairy wives. Here's a link to one version of Melusine's story.
• Interesting - Steve D
  I couldn't get to the story for some reason. But this is an interesting topic. Even one of the Tooks was said to have a fairy wife.
• Book V, Chapter 9. Part 1: Stones and trees. If or when? - Kimi
  When Gimli and Legolas enter Minas Tirith and stare about the city, Gimli says, "When Aragorn into his own, I shall offer him the service of stone-wrights of the Mountain." Legolas replies with, "If Aragorn comes into his own, the people of the Wood shall bring him birds that sing and trees that do not die." What you think this exchange tells us about Gimli and Legolas? Are they being used as representative of their races? Does the use of "When" by Gimli imply that Gimli is more of an optimist than Legolas, who uses "If"?
• I wonder if it doesn't reflect a couple of other things - Blue Wizard
  One is the narrative about the Paths of the Dead, and the assault on the fleet at Pelagir. Gimli is really over-awed by the whole thing, and marvels in amazement that the spirits of the dead obey Aragorn's commands. Legolas is certainly impressed, but it seems not to strike him as being quite as fantastic. I think that it is inconceivable to Gimli, after this, that Aragorn will not "come into his own". Legolas has perhaps a more realistic view - success is rather more doubtful than the flush of this initial victory would seem to indicate. Second, Gimli comes from a tradition of the dwarves spending centuries in exile from their traditional homelands, some of which are lost to them forever, and others of which, like Erebor, they built as a new kingdom, lost, but ultimately have reclaimed after long labor and unlikely chance. Legolas is from an entirely different tradition: the elves have lost land after land, never to be reclaimed. Their "new" realms, like Lorien or Mirkwood, are but poor substitutes for the original. They cannot abide change and, growing weary of the world about them, they depart. Being able to reclaim past glory is for him something for memory rather than actualization.
• If/when - Mr Kimi
  It may reflect Legolas' detachment from Middle Earth. He expects to leave and sail away one day. Gimli (at this stage anyway) expects to stay and leave his bones in the ground. Perhaps his 'when' is a sign of his determination that things will be, and Legolas' 'if' is able to recognise the possibility of a failure he can esacpe from.
• a matter of perspective - Annael
  No doubt the long-lived Elves have learned that life usually doesn't go the way you think it's going to go, even when you think it's a sure bet. One reason why they prefer to live in the now or in the past, perhaps.
• yeah, it's the longer life. - Steve D
• Definitely a reflection - Stumpy
  of what each race considers important in planning a home.
• I think so... - Steve D
  Elves tend to think too much.
• Book V, Chapter 9: The Last Debate. Watch this space - Kimi
  I'll follow the current trend and post all my questions early in the week to allow maximum discussion time. As usual, please feel free to raise any discussion topics of your own.
• Sounds great Kimi..... - Steve D

Inferno
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Apr262009,4:22am

Post #46 of 65(29527 views)
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• Book VI, Chapter 1: Wrap-up - Idril Celebrindal

• Thanks IC, I think this is one of the most important chapters because... - Steve D
  inn it Sam overcomes the power of the Ring.
• Thanks, IC! - pindar
  Thanks for posing some very interesting, insightful questions this week.
• Thanks Idril...you're so in-depth..I always.. - Patty
  learn from your discussions. Great job!
• Great job yet again, Idril. - Kimi
• Nice Idril... - vedhed
  you've just intimidated me out of EVER volunteering to do one of these. Very informative and VERY insightful. Thanks for doing this.
• That will be a tough act to follow next week! - Blue Wizard
  Great job, as usual, Idril.
• Great job Idril! - Aiya
• Book VI, Chapter 1: Frodo and Sam - Idril Celebrindal
  Tolkien describes Sam's reunion with Frodo in terms of a parent finding a lost child. When Sam finally finds him, he holds him in his arms like a baby; Frodo's terror is driven away by Sam's touch and the sound of his voice. Yet Sam sought Frodo as much for the comfort of his presence as he did to continue their mission. What does this say about their relationship as it now stands? How has it evolved since they left the Fellowship at Parth Galen?
• It's more equal than it was - Kimi
  Frodo is damaged, and Sam has discovered more strength than he knew he had. It's a more intense relationship now, too, due to the traumatic experiences they've both been through since Parth Galen. After Shelob's Lair Sam thought he had lost Frodo; Frodo thought he had lost everything. And they've discarded the reserve that marked "civilised" behaviour in places where they have tea time. I can't help thinking that we won't see Sam cradling a naked Frodo in the movies. Perhaps we'll find that the orcs left him his underwear.

• I had the same thought ... - Idril Celebrindal
  I suspect that Frodo will either have some strategically draped rags or a blanket in this scene or will be filmed only from the waist up. :-)
• one thing is.... - Steve D
  that Sam has a deeper understanding of Frodo's suffering and also a greater sense of his own responsibility, if their quest is to be successful.
• i wouldn't say that quite - Naudron
  frodo also has a great respinsibility he's just got this really "heavy" burden to carry..... otherwise he would have stopped long ago(if he didn't have the responsiblity
• Book VI, Chapter 1: Impulse or not? - Idril Celebrindal
  At various points in this chapter, Sam seems to be guided purely by intuition. He takes off the Ring just before he would have fatally revealed himself to Sauron, he manages to find Frodo in the cavernous warren of the Tower of Cirith Ungol, and he correctly senses external danger and that he's being watched. This is unusual behavior for Sam, who hitherto has deferred to Frodo's more highly developed sense of perception. - What do you think has caused this change in Sam? - Is it something internal or external to him? - Does this represent a turning point in his life?
• Sam is a hell of a hobbit - Mr Kimi
  But we don't get a chance to see it much before now 'cos he's always just been doing what he's told.
• A combination of several things - Kimi
  - Necessity: he doesn't have Frodo around to have the intuitions or do the thinking for him. Sam often undervalues himself; at this point he can't afford to. - He's Ringbearer, which does seem to heighten perceptions. - He has the intense motivation of searching for Frodo. - Just possibly some external help from the Valar or from Eru himself. This whole section, from Frodo's apparent death to when Sam returns the Ring to him, marks an irrevocable change in Sam, I think.
• Book VI, Chapter 1: Deus ex machina? - Idril Celebrindal
  Almost all the Orcs in the Tower of Cirith Ungol kill each other in a pitched battle over Frodo's mithril coat ... freeing the way for Sam to enter the tower! Does this seem a little bit too convenient? Or does it express larger underlying themes in Tolkien's work?
• I always had trouble with this. - Annael
  They ALL kill each other? Seems a bit much. It would be more believable if some banded together, at least for a while, and ran away with the goodies. Later on I expect they'd fight among themselves and eventually it would come down to one. But all at once? Nah.
• I find it does stretch my belief just a little - Kimi
  It's been well set up though; whenever we've seen orcs, they've been ill-disciplined and aggressive to each other. It's interesting the way different groups of orcs manage such antagonism. It's like a far nastier version of the suspicion within the Shire of hobbits from different areas. It does seem to show that, wherever orcs come from, their developer didn't make a very good job of them. For responsible jobs, Sauron uses a man (be he alive or undead).
• Well, we orcs are a quarrelsome bunch - Ufthak
  I dare say if anyone had a mithril coat that looked that pretty, I'd be more than ready to throttle them for it. Precious.
• sure, it's convenient - pindar
  but to me it doesn't seem forced, because this is perfectly consistent with orcish behavior. They have no loyalties beyond self interest & greed and are always eager for a quarrel. Who was it in the trilogy who said "Oft evil will shall evil mar"? This does seem to be one of Tolkien's themes, that evil necessarily hinders itself.
• "oft evil..." - qira thunderbrand
  "oft evil will shall evil mar"... I think Aragorn says it to Gandalf, in the company of Theoden, though I couldn't swear to it....
• How about both? - Steve D
• Book VI, Chapter 1: In western lands beneath the Sun - Idril Celebrindal
  In western lands beneath the Sun the flowers may rise in Spring, the trees may bud, the waters run, the merry finches sing. Or there maybe 'tis cloudless night and swaying beeches bear the Elven-stars as jewels bright amid their branching hair. Sam has searched the tower and hasn't found Frodo. In despair, moved by some impulse he doesn't understand, he begins to sing. - Why do you think Sam started singing? - Is this song something Sam could have made up himself? Or is it inspired by something outside of him?
• It may also have something to with... - Mr Kimi
  the star he looked up and saw through the breaking clouds. I find that particular scene very moving. There he is in the worst place on earth but he is reminded that high above the stars are still shining beyond Sauron's grasp. The song, to me, echos the same ideas.
• the Sil - pindar
  All these instances that people have been bringing up of song being associated with safety & goodness (Tom Bombadil, Gildor, etc) remind me also of the Silmarillion: the universe being created as/from music.
• great connection, pindar - Steve D

• thanks, Steve - pindar

• whoa...deja vu :) - pindar
• He sang to comfort himself, I think - Kimi
  Sam loves poetry and songs. And songs have been associated with many of their safe havens along the way, from the meeting with Gildor, then the bath song at Crickhollow, and most strongly at Bombadil's house and Rivendell. Galadriel sang to them when she farewelled them. Sam is snatching at memories of safe, happy times. The words are his own, I think. As Pindar suggests, they may have been forming in his mind for a while.
• It's pretty clear... - Daddy Twofoot
  The passage clearly states that he started singing "old childish tunes out of the Shire, and snatches of Mr. Bilbo's rhymes" but then "words of his own came unbidden..." I always figured it was like when people used to whistle when they were scared, though I'm not sure why that's comforting. Sam has given up and does not expect the song to have any use, but as it turns out it does... :)
• Sam and Tom - Steve D
  I think it's interesting that Sam has two things in common with Tom Bombadil here. He sings a song and that brings about a desired result, finding Frodo. And he's holding the Ring and it seems to have no effect on him since he can give it back to Frodo with no real struggle.
• great connection, Steve - pindar
• thanks, pindar - Steve D
• I always figured - Jester_rm
  that he started singing cause he was feeling rather alone....no more Mr. Frodo nearby, empty scary tower....the sound of his own voice was probably comforting in some way. As to the source of the song, why couldn't it just be some elven verse he learned from Bilbo, like the Gil-Galad verse? Sam was quite interested in elven things, and Bilbo knew quite a bit...maybe it was even something Bilbo wrote up?
• I wonder - pindar
  if Sam had sort of half-formed this song in his mind, not fully consciously, on their long marches. He does have a poetic bent (eg his troll song), and idle composition is as good a thing to keep one's mind with as any for long, tedious, mindless activity. It seems, though, like the final form -- and his suddenly singing at that moment -- is some kind of inspiration. (Hm, hand of Eru here?) Maybe more natural, too, for him to be receiving divine inspiration since he's very recently invoked Elbereth. The consequences of his song are also serendipitous: Frodo hears it, gains some hope. (I think he also calls down to Sam after, but I don't have the books with me so am not sure if I remember it right.)
• Book VI, Chapter 1: Tarks - Idril Celebrindal
  Snaga complains to Gorbag: There's a great fighter about, one of those bloody-handed Elves, or one of those filthy tarks. He's coming here, I tell you. You heard the bell. He's got past the Watchers, and that's tark's work. What is a tark? Why is Snaga afraid of them?
• A Tark is - Blue Wizard
  a man of Numenorian descent - "tark" being a corruption of Tarkil, the Quenya word having that meaning. Depending on what edition of LOTR one has, that definition may or may not be included in the footnotes in the Appendix on languages. The statement that getting past the watchers is a tark's work suggests a possible resolution to the mystery of who made the watchers and why. We know that Cirith Ungol was made by the Gondorians to guard against exit from Mordor. What if they made the Watchers...to sound an alarm if anyone - other than one of themselves - tried to enter the fortress. This is perfectly useful to Sauron as is, although maybe he could figure out a way to "turn off the alarm" for his own orcs, because it would be awfully annoying for the alarm to constantly be going off. Perhaps that explains why Sam using the Phial and saying the name of Elbereth worked - - it was more like a password than a spell that blinded watchers made by Sauron's craft
• My edition doesn't have that footnote - Idril Celebrindal
  For years, I thought tarks were wizards.
• You were short-changed! - Kimi
  Mine does.
• excellent deduction - Steve D
• Book VI, Chapter 1: Where is that miserable creature? - Idril Celebrindal
  What do you think Gollum is doing while Sam is rescuing Frodo from the Orcs?
• hiding, my preciousss...*sneakin'!!* - Daddy Twofoot
  Not to know, of course, but after the failure of his little trick with Shelob, I can only assume he spent half the time looking for Frodo hoping to find him dead and the ring and the other half hiding for his life.
• Book VI, Chapter 1: The great Elf Warrior - Idril Celebrindal
  Why do the Orcs in the Tower of Cirith Ungol perceive the diminutive Sam as a towering, fearsome warrior?
• And Shelob's wounding... - Daddy Twofoot
• Mainly expectations, as pindar and vedhed said. - Kimi
  Also, at least in the case of Snaga, an awareness of the Elven-sword and Galadriel's phial, both powerful artifacts full of "Elvishness".
• All those reasons, plus the fact that Sam had the Ring - Morwen
• isn't it because they can't imagine that a weak little hobbit could "invade" them? - vedhed
  When fear and expectation combine they can do a number on poor, defenseless Mr. Perception.
• expectations - pindar
  I think it's partly because of their assumptions. They know that someone not only got past Shelob but wounded her badly, so naturally enough they're expecting it to be some big warrior type. In shadowy hallways, it would be easy enough for them, scared as they are, to mistake Sam's shadow for that of a much bigger person.
• Book VI, Chapter 1: The terrible power of the Ring - Idril Celebrindal
  As the One Ring is brought nearer to the place where it was forged, it becomes stronger and more difficult for both Frodo and Sam to resist. - What do you think would have happened if Sam or Frodo had used the Ring in Mordor? - Are there any signs that the Ring is gaining control over Frodo? - How does it warp the perception of Frodo (and to a lesser extent, Sam)? - Do you think that the Ring has gotten the upper hand yet?
• Had they used the Ring in Mordor, - Kimi
  Sauron would have perceived them, just as he does when Frodo puts it on at Mount Doom. Frodo's foul vision of Sam as an orc may be a sign that the Ring is gaining power over him. It's certainly an example of its warping his perception. But I think Frodo's wretched state in this chapter is partly because of the horrible experiences he's just had: poisoned by Shelob, then captured and roughly handled by orcs. On top of that, he's been convinced that the Ring has been taken from him and is on its way to Sauron. The Ring doesn't have the upper hand yet, though if Frodo was on his own it might well.
• And what was in that orc-draught? - Stumpy
• Red Bull and battery acid, I reckon - pindar
• Frodo's hand begins to creep upward toward the Ring - Morwen
  As he and Sam get closer to Sammath Naur this seems to become harder to control, at one point he even begs Sam to help him.
• Brief Answers - Narya
  - What do you think would have happened if Sam or Frodo had used the Ring in Mordor? They would have been discovered by The Eye. They were too close to Sauron. - Are there any signs that the Ring is gaining control over Frodo? The obvious sign is the way Frodo turns on Sam. - How does it warp the perception of Frodo (and to a lesser extent, Sam)? It enhances their egos. it makes them think they are can wield more power than they actually can. - Do you think that the Ring has gotten the upper hand yet? Not yet. But three chapters later... Even the wise cannot see all ends.